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Old 02-12-2016, 09:01 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Has anyone *recently* made a hydro assist system with a DE ram for a tie rod *without* a divorced servo? Basically, drilled and tapped saginaw box with a DE ram.

I'm considering using my PSC rebuilt saginaw box, tap it for ram assist, and run a 2" DE ram with 1.25" shaft. I ran the numbers on this setup, and it would be fast enough, provided the box can keep up. Planning to run a 7.5-8" custom pitman arm and a modified low mile stock TJ pump. I can swap to a high flow PSC pump if this one can't keep up, but I have determined that the ~1400 psi and 4 gpm would suffice. Stock flow from a TJ pump is around 2.7 gpm based on research here (PBB). I may need the PSC pump for faster steering but this will still work with a modified pump.

Thoughts?
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:14 PM   #52 (permalink)
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you know that i am doing it right now. But i haven't tested it yet.

i ran a 2" single ended ram with a 3/4" shaft with a stock ZJ pump and it was great. not slow at all.

i can't see hwo this woudl be that much different wiht the 2.25" ram and a 1.25" shaft.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:20 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Bump. Getting ready to mount up my assist. I can either go to tie rod pros are its away from trail damage. Cons I'll have to build a bracket off my track bar bracket as my rig is kind of tall.

Second place is off axle tube to knuckle I've got artec double shear arms. Pros doesn't interfere with anything on up travel. Cons possibly slower steering as I'll need more ram travel (I could be wrong but that's what I've read). Lower on the axle more susceptible to trail damage.

Also from reading this thread I'm still confused wether it's better to be parallel at full lock or wheels straight.

Psc basically says split the difference.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/pdf/tech/single_end.pdf

My setup Dana 60 1.75x8" ram and psc p series pump.

Last edited by RANGERROD; 03-10-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:40 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxracer View Post
Has anyone *recently* made a hydro assist system with a DE ram for a tie rod *without* a divorced servo? Basically, drilled and tapped saginaw box with a DE ram.

I'm considering using my PSC rebuilt saginaw box, tap it for ram assist, and run a 2" DE ram with 1.25" shaft. I ran the numbers on this setup, and it would be fast enough, provided the box can keep up. Planning to run a 7.5-8" custom pitman arm and a modified low mile stock TJ pump. I can swap to a high flow PSC pump if this one can't keep up, but I have determined that the ~1400 psi and 4 gpm would suffice. Stock flow from a TJ pump is around 2.7 gpm based on research here (PBB). I may need the PSC pump for faster steering but this will still work with a modified pump.

Thoughts?
Just saw the date, hahahhaha
hope its done and your happy with it!

That's the plan for my next build, Lee steering box gutted to work as a Servo with no pressure to the piston. Double ended ram to take place of the tie rod. It will effectively be full hydro using a servo with gear box connection, all inside a steering box. The guys at Lee say they have gears available to bring the ration down to work with the 2-2.5 turns lock to lock, I want.

Oh on the race car we run 1450 psi at 6.5 GPM.... Not sure what they will put on this system....
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:52 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Just saw the date, hahahhaha
hope its done and your happy with it!

That's the plan for my next build, Lee steering box gutted to work as a Servo with no pressure to the piston. Double ended ram to take place of the tie rod. It will effectively be full hydro using a servo with gear box connection, all inside a steering box. The guys at Lee say they have gears available to bring the ration down to work with the 2-2.5 turns lock to lock, I want.

Oh on the race car we run 1450 psi at 6.5 GPM.... Not sure what they will put on this system....
Nearly done, need to take the box apart and fix an issue with no flow to one direction.

I thought Lee went out of business? I'm interested in getting down to 2.5 turns.
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:54 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Nearly done, need to take the box apart and fix an issue with no flow to one direction.

I thought Lee went out of business? I'm interested in getting down to 2.5 turns.
Lee retired but a steering company in Santa Clarita bought them out and their guys/employees when over to them too. Its still called Lee and Tommy does still go there to help with problem solving...
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:54 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Lee retired but a steering company in Santa Clarita bought them out and their guys/employees when over to them too. Its still called Lee and Tommy does still go there to help with problem solving...
Badass, I'll have to give them a call. Thanks for the update. If I'm able to get a 2.5 turn box setup I'll report back here
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:04 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I am trying to rework the steering on my Jeep to accept hydro assist. I am told the internal steering box stops, ram, and knuckle stops should all stop at the same time.

I initially set up my steering with a 6.5 inch pitman, and 6.5 inch knuckle length (ball joint to drag link). I did this to speed up the steering, and it worked great until it didn't, and I twisted off a sector shaft.

Setting the ram travel to the knuckle travel is the easy part. To have the steering box travel match the knuckle/ram travel I'm going to have to shorten the pitman arm considerably. About an inch. I'd like to keep the length if I can, and I don't have the time really to figure out internal box spacers.

Question is, What happens to pressure/bleed off/whatever if the ram bottoms but but the steering box still has more to go? In my head, I can't see how the box knows whether is sees internal stops, or uses the ram as it's steering stop.

Thanks for any enlightenment.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:26 PM   #59 (permalink)
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when the ram stops, everything stops. use the ram as your steering stop, get as much travel out of it as your knuckles can take, dial it back a touch and limit the ram. the pressure will just go and recirc.

the box doesn't have enough power to blow the ram apart, but if you let your ram run past your knuckle stops or steering, the ram will blow up everything else
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:31 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Ah, that must be what it is then, unnecessarily pressurizing the ram? That makes sense.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcoplin View Post
I am trying to rework the steering on my Jeep to accept hydro assist. I am told the internal steering box stops, ram, and knuckle stops should all stop at the same time.

I initially set up my steering with a 6.5 inch pitman, and 6.5 inch knuckle length (ball joint to drag link). I did this to speed up the steering, and it worked great until it didn't, and I twisted off a sector shaft.

Setting the ram travel to the knuckle travel is the easy part. To have the steering box travel match the knuckle/ram travel I'm going to have to shorten the pitman arm considerably. About an inch. I'd like to keep the length if I can, and I don't have the time really to figure out internal box spacers.

Question is, What happens to pressure/bleed off/whatever if the ram bottoms but but the steering box still has more to go? In my head, I can't see how the box knows whether is sees internal stops, or uses the ram as it's steering stop.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

Seems like stops in the box is a none issue. If the ram and knuckles hit their stops, the only thing pushing on the piston in the box, sector shaft, and drag link is the oil pressure in the system. Any external force would be controlled by the axle and cylinder stops.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:47 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RANGERROD View Post
Bump. Getting ready to mount up my assist. I can either go to tie rod pros are its away from trail damage. Cons I'll have to build a bracket off my track bar bracket as my rig is kind of tall.

Second place is off axle tube to knuckle I've got artec double shear arms. Pros doesn't interfere with anything on up travel. Cons possibly slower steering as I'll need more ram travel (I could be wrong but that's what I've read). Lower on the axle more susceptible to trail damage.

Also from reading this thread I'm still confused wether it's better to be parallel at full lock or wheels straight.

Psc basically says split the difference.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/pdf/tech/single_end.pdf

My setup Dana 60 1.75x8" ram and psc p series pump.


I feel like PSC knows their shit, as they should, it's their job, but from my personal experience with cylinders in general and especially on SE steering rams, I try to have the cylinder as straight as possible with the load when fully extended because at that point the rod is the least supported. The piston being one support and the gland being the other, the piston is right up against the gland so the rod is really hanging out there and could be putting a lot of force on those parts. On DE rams I try to make everything parallel when the rod is extended. On the collapsed side it's less important because the rod on that side is much better suported.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:14 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Ah, that must be what it is then, unnecessarily pressurizing the ram? That makes sense.
Also rather than breaking knuckles and ruining upper kingpin bushings is can also bend the rams rod outward.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:18 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I feel like PSC knows their shit, as they should, it's their job, but from my personal experience with cylinders in general and especially on SE steering rams, I try to have the cylinder as straight as possible with the load when fully extended because at that point the rod is the least supported. The piston being one support and the gland being the other, the piston is right up against the gland so the rod is really hanging out there and could be putting a lot of force on those parts. On DE rams I try to make everything parallel when the rod is extended. On the collapsed side it's less important because the rod on that side is much better suported.
That’s exactly how I set mine up. And just to update this thread I’m running artec arms and I’m using all 8” of my ram steering stops limit everything ram parallel to axle at full lock. Here’s some pictures and my fancey skid plate.
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:11 AM   #65 (permalink)
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My last setup had the ram mounted to the knuckle but I can't do it on my current setup. I think running the ram to the tie rod really depends on the material/strength of your tie rod, and where you connect it to the tie rod. Connecting it to the middle of the tie rod is much less ideal than straight to the knuckle. The closer you get the attachment point to the knuckle the better off you'll be. And of course, the knuckle is best. My ram was parallel with the wheels turned. Worked fine.
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Interesting question...

Could you split the difference?
That would be my first thought...

Turn the wheels to halfway and make it parallel there. That would put a small angle at full lock and at center.

It would be closer to parallel in the range you are most likely to be bound up. (Neither fully straight or full lock)

What do you guys think?
This I what I had on my last set up. Worked great, the moving end of the ram was just inside the tube adapter and the fixed end beside the housing on the tube. With tight jam nuts I never had it rotate
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