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Old 04-08-2016, 09:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by whitneyj View Post
Solid point on the radius arm comparison.

I won't be bending tube, I'll be building them out of plate. I don't see the purpose of using bent tube and plating it when it's not much more work to just build a set from plate.

I'll probably use 1/4" for the sides and dimpled 1/8" for the top.
If you are going to make it with plate, you need to do the opposite of what you wrote. Top and bottom take the majority of the load not the side. So 1/8" sides and 1/4" top/bottom.

Also I run a bent upper on my 3 link. 2" x 1/4" DOM tubing, and my Panhard has 2 big bends in it. 2" x 1/4" 4130...
You really don't need all that fabbing, unless you want to...

Been running it since 03' ish.....


Edit; Thanks, Muckin_Slusher
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:32 AM   #27 (permalink)
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This was the upper link on the rear of the Torchmate comp buggy. 550 hp LS2, many years of serious abuse. It was all 1/8" mild steel with big holes in it! Never had an issue with it. You don't need to go full retard.
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Old 04-09-2016, 04:52 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
If you are going to make it with plate, you need to do the opposite of what you wrote. Top and bottom take the majority of the load not the top and bottom. So 1/8" sides and 1/4" top/bottom.

Also I run a bent upper on my 3 link. 2" x 1/4" DOM tubing, and my Panhard has 2 big bends in it. 2" x 1/4" 4130...
You really don't need all that fabbing, unless you want to...

Been running it since 03' ish.....
I know what you're trying to say, but could you edit your post please. I'll delete this post when you have.
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:31 AM   #29 (permalink)
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This was the upper link on the rear of the Torchmate comp buggy. 550 hp LS2, many years of serious abuse. It was all 1/8" mild steel with big holes in it! Never had an issue with it. You don't need to go full retard.


This is more or less how I envisioned it.

Good to know 1/8" will be all I need to use. I'd rather not overbuild. My last XJ was unnecessarily heavy. This time around I plan to use better engineering and less whiskey.

Are those 7/8" rod ends?

I just realized that those are just dimpled sides too? Those big holes aren't actually tube spanning side to side?
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:35 AM   #30 (permalink)
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If you are going to make it with plate, you need to do the opposite of what you wrote. Top and bottom take the majority of the load not the top and bottom. So 1/8" sides and 1/4" top/bottom.

Also I run a bent upper on my 3 link. 2" x 1/4" DOM tubing, and my Panhard has 2 big bends in it. 2" x 1/4" 4130...
You really don't need all that fabbing, unless you want to...

Been running it since 03' ish.....
Ok, if you're running bent links without an issue than I feel VERY confident I'll be fine

I'll be honest, though, I'm not following your train of thought on the sides of a fabricated upper link not taking the majority of the load. If I bent 3/8" strap steel and put it into a press vertically, it'll bend immediately. If I take 3/8" plate and make a big ol boomerang and put that in the the press vertically, it'll take significantly more force to bend it (we'll just ignore the fact that it would bow sideways before anything).

So what am I missing in what you're saying?
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:02 AM   #31 (permalink)
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The upper shouldnt see any acute forces like rock hits etc so material thickness is much less important than design and construction. I'd say anything more than 1/8" is overkill if you're fabricating with a boxed design similar to the torch mate link. Think frame vs unibody construction, all about design and spreading load over a larger surface area.
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:33 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Ok, if you're running bent links without an issue than I feel VERY confident I'll be fine

I'll be honest, though, I'm not following your train of thought on the sides of a fabricated upper link not taking the majority of the load. If I bent 3/8" strap steel and put it into a press vertically, it'll bend immediately. If I take 3/8" plate and make a big ol boomerang and put that in the the press vertically, it'll take significantly more force to bend it (we'll just ignore the fact that it would bow sideways before anything).

So what am I missing in what you're saying?
You're both correct to a point. There is 2 main factors in determining bending strength, the depth of the structure is one, which is what you are referring to. But like a floor joist, the top and bottom are doing all the work, the top in compression, and the bottom in tension. The center of the beam, or neutral axis, does very little. That's why holes in the center of a beam weaken it very little.

The 2nd factor is what K5 is talking about, the strength of the top and bottom tension/compression members. Think about I-beam construction, the added material top/bottom is doing most of the work, with the web keeping them from buckling.
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Old 04-09-2016, 08:11 AM   #33 (permalink)
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You're both correct to a point. There is 2 main factors in determining bending strength, the depth of the structure is one, which is what you are referring to. But like a floor joist, the top and bottom are doing all the work, the top in compression, and the bottom in tension. The center of the beam, or neutral axis, does very little. That's why holes in the center of a beam weaken it very little.

The 2nd factor is what K5 is talking about, the strength of the top and bottom tension/compression members. Think about I-beam construction, the added material top/bottom is doing most of the work, with the web keeping them from buckling.
The link is being pushed and pulled, not loaded perpendicular to the ground. What am I not understanding here? The top and bottom of the link are simply tying in the sides to keep from bowing out. The top/bottom are not being loaded. In all reality, I could just use side plates tied in with 2" wide sections of tube through the center spanning side to side and omit using top or bottom plates.
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Old 04-09-2016, 08:24 AM   #34 (permalink)
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The link is being pushed and pulled, not loaded perpendicular to the ground. What am I not understanding here? The top and bottom of the link are simply tying in the sides to keep from bowing out. The top/bottom are not being loaded. In all reality, I could just use side plates tied in with 2" wide sections of tube through the center spanning side to side and omit using top or bottom plates.
If it were a straight tube you would be correct, strictly tension and compression loading. As soon as you bend it, all bets are off. You now have a bending (beam) load, with the greatest stress at the center of the bend. That's why some people call bent tubes "pre-failed", that is the failure mode in compression, where a tube has less strength vs. tension. So you need the most reinforcement at the apex of the bend, tapering to either end. The top/bottom will see the greatest load as it resists bending.
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Old 04-09-2016, 08:44 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I agree, and understand, that the center of the bend is the "prefailed" location. However, the top and bottom of a fabricated link still isn't significantly structural compared to the sides. The height and width of the side plates will add strength, but the width or thickness of the top or bottom will add very little additional strength. They simply locate the side plates to each other. I just can't see it being anything other than that.
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Old 04-09-2016, 08:49 AM   #36 (permalink)
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If you're not going to believe K5 and I, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you. The good news, with enough material, it should still be strong enough, even if it isn't the most efficient structure. You could do some online research on Strength of Materials, Structural Engineering, designing tubular structures, etc. if you are curious.

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:50 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I agree, and understand, that the center of the bend is the "prefailed" location. However, the top and bottom of a fabricated link still isn't significantly structural compared to the sides. The height and width of the side plates will add strength, but the width or thickness of the top or bottom will add very little additional strength. They simply locate the side plates to each other. I just can't see it being anything other than that.
Think like this: the top link controls what? Rotation of the axle onto itself, which stresses the top link on top/bottom, it sees very little lateral stress comparatively. Making the top wider @ the bend would help more than using thicker material on the sides.

The closer to the center the bend is, the weaker it will be

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:59 AM   #38 (permalink)
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This was the upper link on the rear of the Torchmate comp buggy. 550 hp LS2, many years of serious abuse. It was all 1/8" mild steel with big holes in it! Never had an issue with it. You don't need to go full retard.
This post (and pic) needs to be reposted over and over and over.
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Old 04-09-2016, 11:01 AM   #39 (permalink)
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3/4 X 5/8 rod ends, sides are dimpled holes, no internal tubes. Honestly, if I were to do it again I'd put fewer/smaller holes in it, but this held up fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitneyj View Post
This is more or less how I envisioned it.

Good to know 1/8" will be all I need to use. I'd rather not overbuild. My last XJ was unnecessarily heavy. This time around I plan to use better engineering and less whiskey.

Are those 7/8" rod ends?

I just realized that those are just dimpled sides too? Those big holes aren't actually tube spanning side to side?
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Old 04-09-2016, 08:09 PM   #40 (permalink)
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A friend bent his upper using only 1.5" tube....almost cost him a few pennies. Mine is 2" .250 wall DOM bent about 20* up next to the front to clear the motor mount and I've had zero issues
same here, i have a 2x.250 DOM bent to clear the starter and floor. id have a hard time seeing that getting bent without breaking the axle itself or ripping the mounts off.
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