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Old 05-01-2016, 03:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Better brakes properly spec'd by those who know...

With the rash of brake threads of late. Shall we start a thread to aid those of us without the proper knowledge, to be lead by those who do, and are willing to share? I think it is an area of any type of build that everyone should be concerned with getting right the first time in the name of safety...


I have a new build, and would like to get it right for sure....previously had decent brakes on my buggy, but would like them to be better this time around.

This is my build;

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2261513




These are the items I have already for brakes, at this point, I'm ready to purchase masters, and would like to hear the consensus of the better educated on the subject.


Spidertrax- 14" solid/drilled 3/8 rotors, non-heat treated. Front and rear

Wilwood calipers- (4) #120-6818 dynalite , 1.75 piston, for .38 rotor.

Wilwood pads- poly matrix E, part#-15e-6096k, .49 thick

Wilwood pedal- forward mount resi's with balance bar, 8:1 ratio


Quick build specs: legends style build, ls2, th350, atlas 3.0, 5.40 gear, 39 bfg, 2.5 Fox coilovers all around, 2" bumps all around, trailing arm rear, dual tri front. 4300# target weight with driver/co, spares and tools. This rig will also be tagged, insured, and driven for ice cream on a good weather basis from time to time.

Everything to this point was spec'd by Thom at spidertrax. What would be the proper size master from here?


What say ye pirate sleuths?






Matt
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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My master is a Wilwood single 1 1/16 with a CNC 15" peddle. Everything else is what you already have.

I have had multiple people tell me (that have them on their rigs) that this is a combo that works very well for crawlers.
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Do you have a pedal ratio picked out yet? That will be just as important to match to your system. With that picked out, you can figure out how much pedal pressure it will take to create a desired output PSI in the master (that pedal pressure multiplied by leverage ratio, applied over the master's surface area). One of these other threads had someone with around 500PSI complaining about brake problems. Another around 1000PSI, and awesome brakes getting near 1500PSI.

A 1.0625" master has .89 square inch surface area. If you have an 8:1 pedal ratio and apply 100 lbs of force to the pedal, it will be roughly 800 lbs pushed through the brake pushrod. 800lbs over .89" surface area is roughly 900 PSI.

Someone correct me if I did my math wrong there, very possible haha. Note this doesn't give any regard to how firm or soft the pedal feel will be with small or large calipers attached though, but just shows example PSI if the master's output lines were capped.
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes, it's an 8:1 with balance bar, standard swing forward mount.

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Old 05-01-2016, 06:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Do you have a pedal ratio picked out yet? That will be just as important to match to your system. With that picked out, you can figure out how much pedal pressure it will take to create a desired output PSI in the master (that pedal pressure multiplied by leverage ratio, applied over the master's surface area). One of these other threads had someone with around 500PSI complaining about brake problems. Another around 1000PSI, and awesome brakes getting near 1500PSI.

A 1.0625" master has .89 square inch surface area. If you have an 8:1 pedal ratio and apply 100 lbs of force to the pedal, it will be roughly 800 lbs pushed through the brake pushrod. 800lbs over .89" surface area is roughly 900 PSI.

Someone correct me if I did my math wrong there, very possible haha. Note this doesn't give any regard to how firm or soft the pedal feel will be with small or large calipers attached though, but just shows example PSI if the master's output lines were capped.
I understand your math, and agree with it.. And forgive my ignorance, but by other accounts in these recent threads, the advice given to use a smaller mc, goes against this math, without changing the pedal ratio...correct me if I'm wrong. I guess that's some of the clarification I'm trying to determine....along with someone magically telling me which one to use and they'll be perfect....Lol

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Old 05-01-2016, 07:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I understand your math, and agree with it.. And forgive my ignorance, but by other accounts in these recent threads, the advice given to use a smaller mc, goes against this math, without changing the pedal ratio...correct me if I'm wrong. I guess that's some of the clarification I'm trying to determine....along with someone magically telling me which one to use and they'll be perfect....Lol

Matt
Going to a smaller master means that 800lbs of pedal force gets applied over a smaller surface area, so the actual PSI increases.

A single 3/4" master has .44 surface area, so that 800lbs is applied of .44sq. in. That means for the same input force, the 3/4" master creates about 1800 PSI . Only problem is it doesn't push a whole lot of fluid volume at that pressure, so caliper flex, line stretch, etc could equate to a spongy pedal as the calipers eat up the extra fluid volume

I was looking to find the quote on the overall PSI's for a "good" feeling brake system, but haven't found it yet
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Dovenosed 5 speed WJ on 9"s

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Old 05-01-2016, 07:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Okay. I'm looking at a brake calculator now also. What is a normal xxxlbs of pedal force? Is there a magic number that someone might use like 100? I only weigh 180, but I have long levers.... how does the industry determine who/how, etc?... I realize 100 makes the math simpler

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Old 05-01-2016, 07:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I was using 100lbs due to the simplified math, but I honestly don't have the experience to comment on that, or caliper/pad/rotor combos like others can
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I understand. Neither do I, lol. Wanted this thread to be brake tech, looks like we got it started...

Matt
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Here are the specs for the caliper part number I listed above, if this will help.



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Old 05-01-2016, 07:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Just found this gem of a thread by Mr. N on calipers and piston sizes

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...-calipers.html
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I've got the same rotors, calipers, and pads. I use a 7:1 reverse swing wilwood pedal pedal with 3/4 masters front and rear.

Stops awesome, way better than my old buggy with the same masters and stock gm rotors and calipers.

I raced it yesterday and was using the brakes hard. I wore right through the front pads (they were about 40% at the start) and could smell brakes after diving into a corner really hard, but the rears were the same as when i started.

I definitely need to figure out how to get the bias adjusted properly.
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Sweet, thanks for posting. I was just looking at the wilwood sight, in the support section they had some good tips on bias.

Matt
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I assume you were in 4wd the entire time. Interesting that the fronts wore so much quicker.


Edit: after thinking a little more, I realize that weight transfer, and anti-dive in the front suspension is probably the culprit for the accelerated front bias wear. More transfer_more anti_less ground pressure from rear tires_rear locks up sooner_ therefore less rotation of the disc=less wear on rear pads_ more wear for the front carrying more load.


Maybe...

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Old 05-01-2016, 10:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I assume you were in 4wd the entire time. Interesting that the fronts wore so much quicker.

Edit: after thinking a little more, I realize that weight transfer, and anti-dive in the front suspension is probably the culprit for the accelerated front bias wear. More transfer_more anti_less ground pressure from rear tires_rear locks up sooner_ therefore less rotation of the disc=less wear on rear pads_ more wear for the front carrying more load.

Maybe...Matt
Many racers that run 4x4 all the time balance their brakes 50/50 or realistically 100%/100%. The rear can help the fronts stop thru the driveline.

It is also known that stopping is usually more violent than accelerating so how much driveline damage can be attributable to that practice???

Maybe...Ben
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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on the pressure topic, correct me if I am wrong but it wonk make any pressure until the master has moved enough fluid to get the caliper pad in contact with the rotor, so if you have too small of a bore, while the math shows a higher pressure, in a system with big brakes, it may not make very much pressure at all, correct?
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:23 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I assume you were in 4wd the entire time. Interesting that the fronts wore so much quicker.


Edit: after thinking a little more, I realize that weight transfer, and anti-dive in the front suspension is probably the culprit for the accelerated front bias wear. More transfer_more anti_less ground pressure from rear tires_rear locks up sooner_ therefore less rotation of the disc=less wear on rear pads_ more wear for the front carrying more load.


Maybe...

Matt
I was in 4 hi the entire time. I could feel the fronts working harder. I'll check their site for the bias info, thanks for the suggestion!
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Just fyi, but if you'd like to get an estimate for input force, you can put a bathroom scale on your pedal and get a ballpark on what it takes you to feel comfortable on the pedal and use that for calculations.
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Old 05-02-2016, 01:31 PM   #20 (permalink)
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exactly, stick your bathroom scale against a wall or something and see what is comfy for your manhood size, I use 60#'s normally. in short course racing a higher input force is ok, in a hammers race, driver fatigue will set in if you have to push a 100#s of force hundreds of times over a day.. plus you can always push harder if you needed a touch more pressure in an "o-shit" situation..
I would rather have a high pedal ratio and a larger size master, over a 7:1 and small masters myself.. if you shoot for 1000-1200 psi at the caliper with whatever you feel is a decent pedal pressure, you should have a decent setup.
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Do you have a pedal ratio picked out yet? That will be just as important to match to your system. With that picked out, you can figure out how much pedal pressure it will take to create a desired output PSI in the master (that pedal pressure multiplied by leverage ratio, applied over the master's surface area). One of these other threads had someone with around 500PSI complaining about brake problems. Another around 1000PSI, and awesome brakes getting near 1500PSI.

A 1.0625" master has .89 square inch surface area. If you have an 8:1 pedal ratio and apply 100 lbs of force to the pedal, it will be roughly 800 lbs pushed through the brake pushrod. 800lbs over .89" surface area is roughly 900 PSI.

Someone correct me if I did my math wrong there, very possible haha. Note this doesn't give any regard to how firm or soft the pedal feel will be with small or large calipers attached though, but just shows example PSI if the master's output lines were capped.
The only issue I see with your math is that 800 lbs at the pushrod on the pedal has to be distributed between both master cylinders.

If the balance beam was adjusted to 50/50 there would then be 400 lbs (800/2) pushing against each master cylinder and then the line pressure becomes approximately 450 psi (1.0625" diameter master cylinder).
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Here's my favorite web page starting point for this discussion: Brake Upgrade

I followed the math and worked out my brakes using the pointers on this page and am happy with what I ended up with on my Frontier. I was still using the stock pedal assembly so it was just a matter of converting from original to the new calipers then working the math backwards to get to a master cylinder size.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Okay I think I have somewhat of a grasp on stuff here.
If I have a brake system that is balanced (in 2x I can have all 4 lock up together). And the petal has plenty of throw (7:1) And its about as hard to push as I would like.

Is my next option for "Better" brakes bigger diameter rotors (for more leverage) and softer/more aggressive pads?
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Old 05-03-2016, 07:22 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Okay I think I have somewhat of a grasp on stuff here.
If I have a brake system that is balanced (in 2x I can have all 4 lock up together). And the petal has plenty of throw (7:1) And its about as hard to push as I would like.

Is my next option for "Better" brakes bigger diameter rotors (for more leverage) and softer/more aggressive pads?
I suppose, in order to know what would be "better", we'd have to know what you already have.

In a very simple answer, though, as long as everything in the system is proper, then yes - tuning the coefficient of friction relationships would be a next logical step.

EDIT: I should add, I've never worked on a performance brake system on a 4wd system, all my experience comes from dirt late model stuff, where we're constantly fudging with the system to help the car to perform. Front to rear bias, RF shut off to help the car turn, LR shutoff to do the same with a differential or to cut the rear braking in half on an extremely slick track, etc. I'm really interested to learn how the 4wd system changes the dynamics in handling.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:07 AM   #25 (permalink)
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exactly, stick your bathroom scale against a wall or something and see what is comfy for your manhood size, I use 60#'s normally. in short course racing a higher input force is ok, in a hammers race, driver fatigue will set in if you have to push a 100#s of force hundreds of times over a day.. plus you can always push harder if you needed a touch more pressure in an "o-shit" situation..
I would rather have a high pedal ratio and a larger size master, over a 7:1 and small masters myself.. if you shoot for 1000-1200 psi at the caliper with whatever you feel is a decent pedal pressure, you should have a decent setup.
We use an ANSI standard in my industry to design personnel and burden carriers that uses 125 lbs as the maximum force for emergency braking on a foot pedal. Like you stated, that might be a little high for a racing application but proves you're in the right ball park of where to start. [edit] SAE uses this same max force for light utility vehicles.

Last edited by HotDamnItsTheWeekend; 05-03-2016 at 11:28 AM.
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