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Old 02-02-2017, 04:06 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Does propane have the same effect? I could see it being cold from the pressure drop leaving the tank, but I wasn't sure if that only occurred at the valve, or if it carried its effect to the mixer. Sorry never dealt with it before.
Propane boils (turns from a liquid to a gas) at -44*. It is a cold fuel.
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Old 02-02-2017, 04:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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But all that cooling effect goes into the vaporizers and is on the water/coolant side of things. It doesn't cool in the intake charge like gasoline does.
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Old 02-02-2017, 04:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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But all that cooling effect goes into the vaporizers and is on the water/coolant side of things. It doesn't cool in the intake charge like gasoline does.
I realize that air is a much less efficient exchange medium than water. But it would be cool if one could somehow rig the vaporizer to use the hot air charge instead of coolant to take advantage of that expansion cooling.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:22 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I realize that air is a much less efficient exchange medium than water. But it would be cool if one could somehow rig the vaporizer to use the hot air charge instead of coolant to take advantage of that expansion cooling.
I have been thinking the same thing. Basically sending the fuel through a heat exchanger prior to the vaporizer. Just not sure if they can handle the -44degs of the fuel. Maybe something like below?

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Old 02-03-2017, 06:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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You need a heat exchanger that will flow 100's of cfm to cool the incoming charge. That style is meant for water which is a thousand times denser than air. Think intercooler size.


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Old 02-03-2017, 06:48 AM   #31 (permalink)
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You need a heat exchanger that will flow 100's of cfm to cool the incoming charge. That style is meant for water which is a thousand times denser than air. Think intercooler size.
The one in the picture is rated at 390 cfm.
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:11 PM   #32 (permalink)
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So then the question is, what temp is considered a high intake charge?
Some might argue anything above ambient air temperature.

This isn't an easy question to answer because the bottom line depends on what you want or need. For someone looking for every ounce of power possible, they might go with a water-to-air intercooler and bury the heat exchanger in several pounds of ice, so that the intake charge-air temp is below ambient air temperature, which makes for the coldest, densest charge-air possible. For others, reducing intake charge-air temperatures is necessary to prevent high EGTs which can melt pistons and damage the turbo's turbine.

Now, if an engine isn't producing much boost, it's not going to create much additional charge-air heat. Most of the time, turbo'ed gas engines usually run boost in the single digits, whereas diesels tend to produce more boost, (and more heat) which can run anywhere from about 15psi, to over 40 psi depending on its power output. (Diesels heavily depend on boost to breathe whereas gas engines depend more so on rpms) Even then, some turbo diesels didn't come with an intercooler.

Thats not to say that an intercooler won't help in a gas engine producing 5 to 7 psi (remember some will use ice to cool down charge air to below ambient temp) but it is really necessary for every application?

Other things to consider. You can lose 1-2 psi of boost using a large air-to-air intercooler. The intercooler itself creates much more air resistance or drag within the tubes, so that by the time the charge air exits the intercooler on it's way to the cylinders it might have lost some of that boost psi. If the turbo wasn't making much boost to begin with, and give up some of that pressure at the end of the 'cooler, how much benefit are you really getting out of a turbo?

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Old 02-03-2017, 01:19 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Maybe a pre intercooler cooler is the ticket.

Pre-Intercooler Cooling Pipe
Everything I learned in thermodynamics class tells me that that's worthless. Maybe if it had fins on the ID.
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It seems like the main reason that I would need a intercooler for my application is to help with fuel pre-detonation during long spooled pulls.

So how does this plan of attack sound?

Once the new motor is in leave the boost pressure at what it is now (7lbs). Then tune the engine in accordance to adding boost pressure, staying out of pre-det, and keeping EGT numbers in acceptable levels.

This should be able to show me if I need a intercooler in order to get to the power output that I feel I need (15lbs off the top of my head).
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:31 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Maybe a pre intercooler cooler is the ticket.

Pre-Intercooler Cooling Pipe
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Did some digging around on this. Internet consensus is that it isnt worth it.
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Everything I learned in thermodynamics class tells me that that's worthless. Maybe if it had fins on the ID.
Yep, thats what I learned also.
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Old 02-03-2017, 02:52 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I'm still on the fence as to what direction I want to go. I have a turbo 2.4 Ecotec. I plan to run low boost. 6-9psi on forged internals. I have a air to air cooler that I planned to run in front of the radiator. My buggy will see both high speed and low speed crawling. I'm not sure what the best setup for what I'm doing is. I'm not against running E85 if it means I won't need a cooler.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:28 PM   #37 (permalink)
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There is a damn good reason all the new tractors John deere and cnh make are air to air intercooler. With water you can get Temps to 180 to 220 degrees at most. With air it's ambient Temps which is about half that. The problem is it takes more area with air but if you have enough room it makes the most difference. I would look into air to air, if it works for a 630 horse diesel pulling it's balls out at 8 to 10 Mph in a field it should work for your app.
If you can't find enough room then I would go water cooled but with a separate small radiator and pump to keep engine heat out of the equation
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I'm still on the fence as to what direction I want to go. I have a turbo 2.4 Ecotec. I plan to run low boost. 6-9psi on forged internals. I have a air to air cooler that I planned to run in front of the radiator. My buggy will see both high speed and low speed crawling. I'm not sure what the best setup for what I'm doing is. I'm not against running E85 if it means I won't need a cooler.
build it with no intercooler, see how it goes. then add the intercooler if needed? That's what I did with my turbo diesel, and ended up deciding that I don't need to cool it. But diesel may be different, not sure.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:35 PM   #39 (permalink)
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There are more benefits of running a cooler than not. If you can fit one,dewwwwww eetttttt.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:54 PM   #40 (permalink)
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There is a damn good reason all the new tractors John deere and cnh make are air to air intercooler. With water you can get Temps to 180 to 220 degrees at most. With air it's ambient Temps which is about half that. The problem is it takes more area with air but if you have enough room it makes the most difference. I would look into air to air, if it works for a 630 horse diesel pulling it's balls out at 8 to 10 Mph in a field it should work for your app.
If you can't find enough room then I would go water cooled but with a separate small radiator and pump to keep engine heat out of the equation
You are thinking shared water. An independent water setup runs cooler than 180deg.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:32 PM   #41 (permalink)
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There are more benefits of running a cooler than not. If you can fit one,dewwwwww eetttttt.
And this is a reason why I wouldnt. Fitting a intercooler of any type in a purpose built tube chassis crawler is a challenge. The smallest ones that I seem to find that could work are narrow but long Heat Exchanger I need this but with a overall length of 16" not 29". I found a site that custom makes intercoolers but that just sounds like big $ to me.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:48 PM   #42 (permalink)
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You are thinking shared water. An independent water setup runs cooler than 180deg.
My RZR after a long run would typically see around 80-120 in the reservoir for the air to water cooler.

In a split system you gotta be building a fawk ton of boost to see real high temps on the water side. Even then you probably don't have big enough cooler if you are seeing high temps.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:50 PM   #43 (permalink)
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What about one of these air to water systems plumbed into the engine coolant system? Barrel Water to Air Intercoolers

I could take the coolant that is running through the propane regulator and run it through this intercooler before dumping it back into the radiator.

Would 190* be too hot for a coolant?
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:06 PM   #44 (permalink)
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What about one of these air to water systems plumbed into the engine coolant system? Barrel Water to Air Intercoolers

I could take the coolant that is running through the propane regulator and run it through this intercooler before dumping it back into the radiator.

Would 190* be too hot for a coolant?
Many factory supercharged cars use engine temp coolant in their charge air coolers. Separate systems work better for obvious reasons but engine temp coolant is fine and far better than not having a cooler at all.

Especially for running around in places like naches and such. That is something I think a lot of these guys don't understand when they talk about crawlers not needing intercoolers. We do a lot of driving in our trail systems up here getting from trail to trail. You start building a bunch of heat in your charge air and you can start running into knock issues when your cooking down the forest roads.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:21 PM   #45 (permalink)
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You start building a bunch of heat in your charge air and you can start running into knock issues when your cooking down the forest roads.
Or racing 5.3s up the gravel roads to the Crushers at TSF
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Old 02-03-2017, 07:30 PM   #46 (permalink)
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The supercharged lightning engine I had used a small air to water cooler in front of the radiator to cool the coolant prior to entering the air to water precooler under the supercharger to cool the air entering the engine. Maybe easier to fit two small air to water coolers than one large air to air. It had a separate reservoir and electric pump. At some point I want to go the turbo route and was debating being able to fit all the components for a turbo as well. The second diagram explains the two air to water cooler flow path.

Technical Articles | How An Intercooler Works | Turbosmart International
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Old 02-03-2017, 08:05 PM   #47 (permalink)
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And this is a reason why I wouldnt. Fitting a intercooler of any type in a purpose built tube chassis crawler is a challenge. The smallest ones that I seem to find that could work are narrow but long Heat Exchanger I need this but with a overall length of 16" not 29". I found a site that custom makes intercoolers but that just sounds like big $ to me.
I had done some research on intercoolers a while back and found a company that stocks hundreds of affordable sizes and shapes. Of course I didn't save the link for some reason so I will keep looking for it again and get back to you. But I think if you could have any size / shape you wanted there would no longer be an excuse, right?
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Old 02-03-2017, 08:20 PM   #48 (permalink)
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If I could find a intercooler that would fit in my space constraints in conjunction with the 4.5" spall fan that I found, I would be all in.
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Old 02-03-2017, 08:28 PM   #49 (permalink)
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What about one of these air to water systems plumbed into the engine coolant system? Barrel Water to Air Intercoolers

I could take the coolant that is running through the propane regulator and run it through this intercooler before dumping it back into the radiator.

Would 190* be too hot for a coolant?
Thats what I'm basically doing with a Cummins (except the propane regulator bit).…..Heres what it looks like so far;





Before big over-the-road trucks went to air-to-air intercoolers, they ran water-to-air with the coolant plumbed to the intercooler for many, many years. The temp was sufficiently cool enough at 180-190* to provide "cooling" for the charge-air fed to the engine. Many air-to-air intercoolers aren't doing much better in diesels, the charge air exiting the IC is still above 150* because the charge air isn't spending much time in the IC and air/air simply isn't as efficient. The upside of a water/air IC thats plumbed into the cooling system is;
1) You're actually increasing the volume of coolant, because you're increasing the volume of the system, and more coolant volume means more heat can be absorbed
2) Less expense than a dedicated water pump and separate heat exchanger. While a dedicated pump and heat exchanger would potentially allow for greater charge air cooling, a tied in system also has less to go wrong for the slight increase in charge air temps

In my case, I already had a huge 6 inch deep Griffin radiator which was mounted in the bed, (since there was no way it was gonna fit under the hood) So with a huge rear mounted radiator and water/air IC plumbed in, I'm gonna have a huge volume of coolant in the system which should be beneficial on it's own…at least thats the theory

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Old 02-03-2017, 09:26 PM   #50 (permalink)
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This is a pic of what I have to work with. Not much room at all. I need something to replace my blue charge pipe. This is the length issue with the air to air and the allure of the water to air cooler shown earlier.
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