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Old 07-02-2004, 04:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Daily driver full hydro steer q's

First off - if this needs to be moved to newbie - let me know and I will move it.

My question is for those that have full hydraulic steering in "daily drivers" - what components did you use - p/n's are helpfull as well.

I read the entire Bellavista thread - what a great tech writeup about parts - how it all works, benefits/pitfalls, etc. Thank you Bellavista. The amount of time he spends in these articles is amazing. Again, Thank you.

I researched the prices of the components Bellavista used and they are pricey. I don't want to "skimp" on my steering - but at the same time over $1k in steering parts is expensive. Anyone have good results with other components that are cheaper and reliable? I drive my Jeep to and from the trails so freeway stability is required.

I also researched a few other vendors here - and pricing is similar - if this is what it takes so be it - I will pay. But.....if others have had success with cheaper parts - please contribute.
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Old 07-02-2004, 05:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Might want to forget Full hydro for a DD, and research Hydro Assist.
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The reason for asking is that I do not want to go to hydro assist - and some here have mentioned DD's with full hydro. Right now my steering is not something I am going to repair with new pieces - like polishing a turd - ross manual. I don't want to spend money twice if it can be done once. Running drive flanges on a locked front end is not PS friendly - nor manual.
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone daily drives a rig width full hydro. Sure, it may occasionally see back street use or high speed use on the trail, but any reputable fab shop or person will tell you full hydro is not meant for the street.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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but any reputable fab shop or person will tell you full hydro is not meant for the street.
why?

Last edited by mj; 07-02-2004 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj
why?
Because it is not as safe as a tie rod mechanical link. I don't know that I would run full hydro on something that I drive on the highway more than 30 min. I have no problem crusing the highway here but it is just not the most street friendly.

HTH Jake
I bought my stuff from station as well.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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what's wrong w/ hydro assist?
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I don't want this to be a debate as for as safe/non-safe. As many people have mentioned brakes are run only by hoses - my e-brake says in the manual that you must depress the brake pedal to engage the "mechanical" e-brake. What is the difference between brakes using only hoses and steering?

Other have mentioned breaking a pitman arm on the road and off - then no steering as well.

Back to the orginal question - who is using what for their rigs - and should I just pony up for the performance off road or howe?
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Failure of the hoses is not the reason why hydro steering is not safe for the street.

If your engine dies for any reason you will lose all, or nearly all, of your steering.

I would not drive a rig on the street at all with full hydro. Great for the trail, piss poor for the street.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Again - this is not a debate. Many have documented that in the event of engine failure hydro still will steer with more manual input. Yes it is difficult - maybe more so than a normal PS setup gone awry. Full hydro still allows steering in the event of engine or PS pump failure. Sceep had this happen and was still able to get it off the trail/road.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I am sure it didn't happen at 60 mph on the highway though.

I doubt anyone in their right mind would even try to help someone put full hydro on a DD.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I suggest hopping in a rig with full hydro before spending the money on it. You wont want to drive it on the highway.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:58 PM   #13 (permalink)
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a friend has full hydro 4 wheel steering
it steers well enough without a pump to complete an obstical course
from the passenger seat it seemed pretty normal in everyway other then the rear steer
with a manual tranny the engine will freewheel and the pump will spin if the vehicle is moving, unless you have a catastrophic hard part failure

boils down to "call Station, pay what he asks"
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You would need to devise a way to make the input less sensitive, and it would require a return to center function on the orbital valve. The biggest difficulty I see is the lack of feedback to the driver. Look down a second, and you've turned your wheel 30 degrees and flipped your rig on the highway, or put it in the ditch. You might want to research what car manufacturers are doing to solve these problems on the new vehicles with steer by wire mechanisms. I'd want some safety mechanism on the pump, that if it loses pressure it returns to center and locks there. I'm sure it can be done safely and effectively, but I bet it will cost you several thousand dollars to do it right.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj
a friend has full hydro 4 wheel steering
it steers well enough without a pump to complete an obstical course
from the passenger seat it seemed pretty normal in everyway other then the rear steer
with a manual tranny the engine will freewheel and the pump will spin if the vehicle is moving, unless you have a catastrophic hard part failure

boils down to "call Station, pay what he asks"

I had a feeling that the good systems will require the coin - I just see guys running the parts supply cylinders for so cheap.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MNBen
You would need to devise a way to make the input less sensitive, and it would require a return to center function on the orbital valve. The biggest difficulty I see is the lack of feedback to the driver. Look down a second, and you've turned your wheel 30 degrees and flipped your rig on the highway, or put it in the ditch. You might want to research what car manufacturers are doing to solve these problems on the new vehicles with steer by wire mechanisms. I'd want some safety mechanism on the pump, that if it loses pressure it returns to center and locks there. I'm sure it can be done safely and effectively, but I bet it will cost you several thousand dollars to do it right.

Reaturn to center is a load reacting type. Available. Read Bellavistas tech writeup as to what can be done.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by mj
why?

Beacause if you loose your pressure(leak... etc.), you have no steering. Where in hydro-assist, you do!
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You can get a 2"x8" double ended ram from Surpluscenter.com for $100. Thats what I picked up for mine. They were out of them for a while then had them in stock again. Not sure of their current sypply. I think I posted the part number at one time, seach and you'll find it. I still would either buy a cheap DD or go assist. Mine is going to be a trailer queen so I'm not worried about it.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm doing it. My crew is doing it. It is fine, just use your heads. We have one clown(and i am NOT condoning this!!!!!) in our crew who can run his fully hydro fullsize Ford on 44 Boggers(which is in itself a feat!) at 80 MPH all the way to Omaha from here, which is 3 hours away. No probs. This is, again, and argument based on theories, not "I've tried its..." Go to any hydro shop/farm supply shop, they sell an adjustable valve that will decrease the amount of fluid being used(flow), but not the power available. They cost about $70 and they work. Mine is still a little too touchy, I only have a 1.25" rod in my DE ram. It's pretty quick!
Again, I do NOT think everyone should do it, but none of you built your systems with the street in mind, only the trail. There IS a different build up procedure.
But for what it is worth, I am ditching the full hydro and putting a box back on. I wanna be able to travel more with it to carry the mountain bikes around.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You would need to devise a way to make the input less sensitive, and it would require a return to center function on the orbital valve. The biggest difficulty I see is the lack of feedback to the driver. Look down a second, and you've turned your wheel 30 degrees and flipped your rig on the highway, or put it in the ditch. You might want to research what car manufacturers are doing to solve these problems on the new vehicles with steer by wire mechanisms. I'd want some safety mechanism on the pump, that if it loses pressure it returns to center and locks there. I'm sure it can be done safely and effectively, but I bet it will cost you several thousand dollars to do it right.
If you match the orbital to the ram size this is not an issue at all. My setup has the same turns lock to lock as my stock steering did. This and a load reacting orbital and it should be fine for street use. I am waiting on drivelines and I can offer some real world experience.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Once again(third time)...this is not a debate.

Pressure leak in brakes....no brakes. Same principle.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Budd
Once again(third time)...this is not a debate.

Pressure leak in brakes....no brakes. Same principle.
But you still have an e-brake... Think of the draglink in an assist setup as an e-steer
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MNBen
You would need to devise a way to make the input less sensitive, and it would require a return to center function on the orbital valve. The biggest difficulty I see is the lack of feedback to the driver. Look down a second, and you've turned your wheel 30 degrees and flipped your rig on the highway, or put it in the ditch. You might want to research what car manufacturers are doing to solve these problems on the new vehicles with steer by wire mechanisms. I'd want some safety mechanism on the pump, that if it loses pressure it returns to center and locks there. I'm sure it can be done safely and effectively, but I bet it will cost you several thousand dollars to do it right.

Again, the valve I use would "solve" this, but the "lack of feedback" is a load of crap. Big tires transmit every bump and rut in any road. You have to STEER the rig just like you do any car. And YES, the crown in the road WILL pull on you just the same. It is basically JUST a hydraulic draglink, it's not freakin' magic.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:31 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thank you Rockslut and Twistedmetal - first posters to offer real experience or trying experience. I remember reading someone had a DD with full hydro but couldn't find the post. What are you using for cylinder, steering actuator(orbital), etc? I def. want load reactive with a DE(balanced) cylinder.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I don't feel like quotuing MNBen AGAIN, but the "return to center and lock there" is retarded! What is the difference between that and a blown hose??? You steering won't fail on a straight away, and if it does, you simply stop. What if you're turning? I don't think some of you realise how quickly you can stop a rig, not to mention how quickly you will notice that there may be a ghost in the machine and pull over to inspect it. You will HEAR a hose blow long before you lose steering. There will be plenty of time to get stopped.
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