pattern check - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-01-2019, 02:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
pattern check

Well, this is my first ring & pinion install. Axle is a '97 Ford 10.25. I'm installing used 4.10 gears and a Detroit. This is my initial stab using the original shims; carrier caps are torqued. Backlash is .020 (too loose). This was measured from the outside of the gear, and I realize that I need to measure it from the middle of the gear. I would have fooled around with the backlash, but I ran out of gear marking paint. The setup kit literally had just a dab.

It looks like the pinion depth is pretty good (rumor is that Ford housings and gears are cut very accurately?), and I should fix the backlash and check again. What say the experts?


The pinion shim is .029, driver's side shim is .262, and passenger is .289.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gb...klz99xBN5jE79F

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ES...TDWhFcmVeKvZgX

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UZ...nqBT2MA3o9mbgD

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XQ...2-gxuS-tbXyu_J

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1e0...yFBtqCWLDRJM8C
Attached Images
 
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.

Last edited by bremen242; 01-01-2019 at 02:55 PM.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2019, 08:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
Rock God
 
The Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 21507
Location: Kent Wa
Posts: 1,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by bremen242 View Post
This was measured from the outside of the gear, and I realize that I need to measure it from the middle of the gear.

I ran out of gear marking paint. The setup kit literally had just a dab.

It looks like the pinion depth is pretty good

rumor is that Ford housings and gears are cut very accurately

The pinion shim is .029
I'll hit these in order of appearance above.

99.9% of gear installers measure B/L at the outer edge of the ring gear, the change from the edge to the center is insignificant

A dab of marking compound goes a very long way if you only do the 4 or 5 teeth that are necessary, more than that is just a waste.

Not sure how you get that the depth looks "Pretty good" I can't tell anything of significance from any of the pictures you have posted, did you water down your marking compound? It all appears to be washing away, leaving no real discernible pattern.

All housings (Except Model 20) and gears are cut very accurately, none seem to have noticeably better tolerances than others.

0.029 pinion shim is right in the pall park, I keep track of all my pinion shim thickness, and most 10.25 Ford axles take .025-0.27 to set up, so you are close.

Is this a used gear? Looks like it may be.
__________________
Mac

Last edited by The Mac; 01-02-2019 at 08:45 AM.
The Mac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 01-02-2019, 07:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
I'll hit these in order of appearance above.

99.9% of gear installers measure B/L at the outer edge of the ring gear, the change from the edge to the center is insignificant

A dab of marking compound goes a very long way if you only do the 4 or 5 teeth that are necessary, more than that is just a waste.

Not sure how you get that the depth looks "Pretty good" I can't tell anything of significance from any of the pictures you have posted, did you water down your marking compound? It all appears to be washing away, leaving no real discernible pattern.

All housings (Except Model 20) and gears are cut very accurately, none seem to have noticeably better tolerances than others.

0.029 pinion shim is right in the pall park, I keep track of all my pinion shim thickness, and most 10.25 Ford axles take .025-0.27 to set up, so you are close.

Is this a used gear? Looks like it may be.
Okay; measuring backlash at the edge of the gear shouldn't matter.

To me, it appears that the contact patch is toward the outside of the ring gear on the drive and coast side. It isn't very visible, that is for sure.

I didn't water down the marking compound. It is was a dab on a wafer that came with the setup kit. It is probably about 2 years old; is there a shelf life on the compound? I didn't water down the marking compound.

The gears are used set that I bought off of another PBB member. Could this plus the old marking compound hose up the pattern? I imagine that if the gear has been "smoothed" in usage, the compound might not stick as well.

I am going to move the ring gear .010 toward the pinion, clean the ring gear and pinion, and try with some new marking compound.

Thanks for the help; hope to post up some new pics tomorrow.
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2019, 08:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
DozerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9144
Location: NJ
Posts: 9,317
Send a message via AIM to DozerDan
Quote:
Originally Posted by bremen242 View Post
I am going to move the ring gear .010 toward the pinion, clean the ring gear and pinion, and try with some new marking compound.
Well that certainly is a bold approach....
__________________
Dan Smith
'physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight'

Fear is not an option!
DozerDan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2019, 09:10 PM   #5 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
1sicbronconut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Member # 37866
Location: Rapid City South Dakota
Posts: 2,774
Shoot for .012 on the backlash even checking pattern without the correct back lash is pretty much a waste of time. Trying a .010 change might be a little much but it might be close, I'm spoiled I have access to Ford set up tools
__________________
"Diamond plate is the off road equivalent of an Adam's apple on the newly divorced woman who just drank you under the table at TGIFridays."
1sicbronconut is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2019, 09:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
Rock God
 
The Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 21507
Location: Kent Wa
Posts: 1,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by bremen242 View Post
The gears are used set that I bought off of another PBB member.
This is the biggest thing that is effecting the look of your pattern. A used gear wont give you the same look of a pattern like a new gear. Set your pattern looking at the coast side of the gear but don't get too picky, set your B/L about 0.012 and run it, that's about all you can do with a used gear.
The upside is, that the 10.25 axle is a notoriously forgiving reared to set up, so you shouldn't have any issues as long as you get it close and have your bearing preloads correct.
__________________
Mac

Last edited by The Mac; 01-03-2019 at 09:12 AM.
The Mac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2019, 02:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
Granite Guru
 
gt1guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Member # 236179
Location: New Iberia, La.
Posts: 586
What is the reason for only going off the coast side of a set of used gears? Is it because there would be less wear on that side?

Honest question. I'm learning.
__________________
Kevin
gt1guy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2019, 03:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
Rock God
 
The Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 21507
Location: Kent Wa
Posts: 1,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
What is the reason for only going off the coast side of a set of used gears? Is it because there would be less wear on that side?

Honest question. I'm learning.
Exactly, the wear makes the pattern more or less unreadable on the drive side of the gear.
__________________
Mac
The Mac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2019, 08:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
okay, sounds good. I'll shoot for .012 b/l and go from there. My AC Delco compound should be here tomorrow, so I'll see what I end up with.

thanks!
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2019, 09:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Member # 312354
Posts: 751
I like .009 to .012 for backlash. A little tighter if I have new bearings and know I can give the set a good gentle break in.
ironmangq is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2019, 10:06 AM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
The Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 21507
Location: Kent Wa
Posts: 1,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmangq View Post
I like .009 to .012 for backlash. A little tighter if I have new bearings and know I can give the set a good gentle break in.
You clearly didn't read any of the responses before posting.....

And new bearing have absolute ZERO to do with B/L
__________________
Mac
The Mac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2019, 09:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
Okay, got to spend a little private time with the truck.

Pinion shim is still .029, 34 in/ft of preload

Left shim is 0.269, right shim is 0.279. Backlash is 0.012.

Sorry for the bad marking compound. UPS hosed up my delivery of AC Delco marking compound, and the only GM dealer around here with it in stock isn't open on weekend, and closes at 4pm (wtf).

Looks better than the initial run.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=17d...PVXF6QwE2JzBGv
https://drive.google.com/open?id=10H...aFMP8mq3lVoPnC
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VB...v0sAMaqmwr4qM3
Attached Images
 
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2019, 11:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
After studying the pattern and comparing to other patterns (and watching the Carl Jantz video again), I probably need to add another .002 to move the coast side towards the heel and will move the drive side back to the toe a bit. thoughts?
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2019, 08:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
Rock God
 
The Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 21507
Location: Kent Wa
Posts: 1,311
I wouldn't change that, looks killer!
__________________
Mac
The Mac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2019, 08:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
I wouldn't change that, looks killer!
cool! appreciate the feedback. I started putting everything together. Apparently, a 10.25" crush sleeve is hard to crush.

Upgraded to harbor freight 3/4" equipment.
Attached Images
 
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.

Last edited by bremen242; 01-08-2019 at 08:10 PM.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2019, 11:40 AM   #16 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
bremen242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 28687
Location: GANS
Posts: 3,745
I buttoned everything up yesterday. I took it for a quick drive last night and a longer one this morning. Everything seems smooth, and I am not hearing any noise. Plus, the extra power is nice, but the computer has to figure out the new shift points.

Thanks for the help!
__________________
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdan460
i don't like it, i don't understand it, and i don't think it would do good doughnuts and burnouts.
bremen242 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.