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Old 01-31-2019, 10:01 AM   #51 (permalink)
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14ff is a religion for Mac
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:04 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dr.Danger View Post
Everyone in the context of the discussion is calling the 11+ axle "the 37 spline" to differentiate it. We can call it "latest version of the 10.5" if you'd like? Nothing about what I said isn't untrue, even for the 05-11 axles, and even if you want to make this into a "gotcha" about where the splines in the colloquial name are.

It's also OK for you to believe one thing and for me to think something different. You're not going to convince me that they're worlds worse than a 14 bolt and nobody should build anything different. There's plenty of evidence out there to challenge what people have been saying about the 14 bolts for decades. Enough that several here are starting to realize it's not the end all, be all axle for this sport.

Are you going to address the meat of my post, or just dismiss it entirely over that?

You need to take a deep breath man.... I never said the 14 bolt was the end all be all of axles. I have always been baffled as to why the 10.5" axles has never got much love from the masses, they are are cheap to buy and very plentiful.
My earlier posts were merely pointing out how stupid it is to call the 14 bolt design "A band-aid fix" to a mistake. I would have pointed out the same stupidity if it were said about the 10.5". I have no issue with the 10.5 other than cost and availability of gears and the bolt pattern.

What about your rants am I not addressing to your satisfaction? You haven't said anything that I see, that is worth referencing.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:08 AM   #53 (permalink)
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14ff is a religion for Mac
To some I suppose it is... what's funny is I was looking for a Factory Disc Brake 14 bolt, but since this conversation started I have been looking at some 10.5" Fords ...
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:23 AM   #54 (permalink)
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But I do feel honored........



I also have a 40 spline 14b ARB sitting here if anybody needs it because I'm over this chebby junk .


Bla Bla Bla


And another To Valley Rock

Fixered


What took you so long

You gonna be at the Hammers or are you already there ?
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:24 AM   #55 (permalink)
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If the reason they dont make a spool is because you have a welder then why do they make spools for 14 Bolt, D44, D60, 9", Toy 8" and such? Does your welder not work on those?
you are the axle god so why dont you tell us why?

spicer itself makes a d44 spool, I find that curious https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/da...full+spool,575 wow its cheaper then a yukon version
the d60 and ford 9" are drag racing axles so that is why they have a spool made for them and have had for decades before anyone made one for a 14ff
the toy axle must be used in some kind of racing as Mittler bros makes it and speedway sells them. in steel and aluminum!

I have seen more welded 14ff then spools but when china junk spools are $100 it become obvious why they sell (i have a china d60 spool on the shelf beside three d60 detroits )

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Old 01-31-2019, 10:25 AM   #56 (permalink)
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chromo would be nice and the only thing on your list that I would care about, 4.88s are close enough, 40 spline is all custom shit anyway so what prevents someone from 40 splining a 10.5? a spool looks simple enough to machine (and you could spline it for dana shafts) but why
I have no desire to run a spool or got to 40 spline axles, but he asked me to "Name one thing that's available for the 14 bolt that isn't for the 10.5" so I named 3 since he asked.

And now he doesn't like the fact that I was able to name 3

Why are Ford guys so damn sensitive... This is a total opinion thread, I don't love the 14 bolt to death... It has just proven itself to be a productive work horse for a LOT of people over the years an that is indisputable.
That said, yes there are many other killer axles in the game that are strong as shit and can and should be used more.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:29 AM   #57 (permalink)
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You need to take a deep breath man.... I never said the 14 bolt was the end all be all of axles. I have always been baffled as to why the 10.5" axles has never got much love from the masses, they are are cheap to buy and very plentiful.
My earlier posts were merely pointing out how stupid it is to call the 14 bolt design "A band-aid fix" to a mistake. I would have pointed out the same stupidity if it were said about the 10.5". I have no issue with the 10.5 other than cost and availability of gears and the bolt pattern.

What about your rants am I not addressing to your satisfaction? You haven't said anything that I see, that is worth referencing.
You're right, you didn't outright say that. It's more of a theme in this thread if anything. Likewise, I wasn't the guy who outright called the 14 bolt design a bandaid fix. I feel it was probably seen as important at one time and just ended up being easier to keep than redesign. That's not really bandaiding as much as it is not fixing what ain't broke, and what we possess the tooling for. GM is probably the most famous OEM for using the same designs for years and years on end with only minor variations because it saves money. Which i'll reinforce, means great for wheelers and hotrodders, but not necessarily what's truly "better".

As far as what I thought wasn't addressed: I was talking about the carrier strength and the purpose of aftermarket parts (namely spools) being needed, or realistically not needed at all. My point was, just because they offer aftermarket options, doesn't make the initial product better. You seemed to me to be voicing the opposite. If not, my bad.

Spools are damn pointless to me for most HD axles and I don't feel it points to "quality" when offered for a specific axle. If anything, I feel a slew of aftermarket options points to something actually needing those options, and subsequently why they are popular.

If you don't feel any of that is worthy of discussion after voicing it as a "pro" or "strength" for one axle and detrimental of another, ok.

I'm not mad. I do respect your input as a builder and someone with years of experience. But, I think there's a lot of room to disagree on the why's and how's of one axle being perceived as better or stronger than another, and the old school of reasoning why that is isn't gospel. If I had to guess, I'd say you're not building either one of the things often with "failure" as the reason for doing so.

Many here do not want to consider manufacturing methods or out of the box capability as a huge "pro" compared to availability of aftermarket options. Back in the 10.25 days, I'd have totally agreed on a 14b being better than a 10.25. In the last decade... not so much. In time, if it gains more popularity, which I think it will as people utilize SD axles more and more, I think we're going to see more upgrades for them that might not even be needed. What's in the junkyard the most is a pretty good indicator of what you're going to find numerous aftermarket parts for in 5-10 years.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:37 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I have no desire to run a spool or got to 40 spline axles, but he asked me to "Name one thing that's available for the 14 bolt that isn't for the 10.5" so I named 3 since he asked.

And now he doesn't like the fact that I was able to name 3

Why are Ford guys so damn sensitive... This is a total opinion thread, I don't love the 14 bolt to death... It has just proven itself to be a productive work horse for a LOT of people over the years an that is indisputable.
That said, yes there are many other killer axles in the game that are strong as shit and can and should be used more.
a spool and 40 spline is available for any axle given deep enough pockets

so my interpretation is you got him on 1 thing, off the shelf chromos,
which needs to be addressed IMO and I think will be with the surge in 05+ d60s useage, smart money in the industry should jump on that. seeing as they are make jeep swap kits for these axles now the market is going to be there.
I dont think I have seen a broken 10.5 shaft tho so?
I have seen 1200hp dynojet runs on the stock 10.5 axle.


my recollection is that you have a metric shit ton of posts lauding the virtues of the boat anchor. this thread just had me thinking, 'again Mac?'. maybe I am wrong but with p4x4 search engine what it is these days I cant easily go back and look.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:39 AM   #59 (permalink)
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you are the axle god so why dont you tell us why?

spicer itself makes a d44 spool, I find that curious https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/da...full+spool,575 wow its cheaper then a yukon version
the d60 and ford 9" are drag racing axles so that is why they have a spool made for them and have had for decades before anyone made one for a 14ff
the toy axle must be used in some kind of racing as Mittler bros makes it and speedway sells them. in steel and aluminum!

I have seen more welded 14ff then spools but when china junk spools are $100 it become obvious why they sell (i have a china d60 spool on the shelf beside three d60 detroits )
It's super simple... Demand
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:43 AM   #60 (permalink)
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my recollection is that you have a metric shit ton of posts lauding the virtues of the boat anchor. this thread just had me thinking, 'again Mac?'. maybe I am wrong but with p4x4 search engine what it is these days I cant easily go back and look.
I'm pretty damn sure you are wrong about this, I cant recall have much if any conversation about the 14 bolt in the past.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:48 AM   #61 (permalink)
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It's super simple... Demand
so like Dr says, the 14ff stuff was so flawed they needed the products to repair vast numbers of them? I agree with his sentiment 'like most chevy products'
or that marketing and parrot4x4 created the demand.

more likely china pricing dropped the cost low enough to be under what a replacement open carrier cost combined with parrot4x4.




it is far from simple. look how hard it has been to get aftermarket support for the best d60f that is available in vast numbers. still no chromos for the 05+ last I looked
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:09 AM   #62 (permalink)
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so like Dr says, the 14ff stuff was so flawed they needed the products to repair vast numbers of them? I agree with his sentiment 'like most chevy products'
or that marketing and parrot4x4 created the demand.

more likely china pricing dropped the cost low enough to be under what a replacement open carrier cost combined with parrot4x4.




it is far from simple. look how hard it has been to get aftermarket support for the best d60f that is available in vast numbers. still no chromos for the 05+ last I looked
I wouldn't say "so flawed", but wheelers were certainly breaking them with great enough numbers that someone was able to capitalize.


In the spirit of the lack of aftermarket for the Super 60s, I'm wondering WTF nobody has been able to offer deeper reduction gearsets for 203s again? It doesn't seem like they would be in the realm of an ecobox plus a $100 donor 241 and a lot of people already have them.
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:38 AM   #63 (permalink)
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As far as what I thought wasn't addressed: I was talking about the carrier strength and the purpose of aftermarket parts (namely spools) being needed, or realistically not needed at all. My point was, just because they offer aftermarket options, doesn't make the initial product better. You seemed to me to be voicing the opposite. If not, my bad.
I Agree 100% that the 10.5 Ford is built like a tank and probable had the strongest open carrier of any light duty axle. I wasn't challenging any of your points otherer than the "Name one thing" part

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Spools are damn pointless to me for most HD axles and I don't feel it points to "quality" when offered for a specific axle. If anything, I feel a slew of aftermarket options points to something actually needing those options, and subsequently why they are popular.
I agree with you here as well.... A spool has it's place just not in anything I own.. lol I was just pointing out it's non-existence for the 10.5"

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Many here do not want to consider manufacturing methods or out of the box capability as a huge "pro" compared to availability of aftermarket options. Back in the 10.25 days, I'd have totally agreed on a 14b being better than a 10.25. In the last decade... not so much. In time, if it gains more popularity, which I think it will as people utilize SD axles more and more, I think we're going to see more upgrades for them that might not even be needed. What's in the junkyard the most is a pretty good indicator of what you're going to find numerous aftermarket parts for in 5-10 years.
Agreed here too!
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:07 PM   #64 (permalink)
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so like Dr says, the 14ff stuff was so flawed they needed the products to repair vast numbers of them? I agree with his sentiment 'like most chevy products'
or that marketing and parrot4x4 created the demand.

more likely china pricing dropped the cost low enough to be under what a replacement open carrier cost combined with parrot4x4.




it is far from simple. look how hard it has been to get aftermarket support for the best d60f that is available in vast numbers. still no chromos for the 05+ last I looked
FYI most of the worlds spools are made in India not China, as China hasn't bothered with them as far as I have seen as of yet.

And when we released the first 14 bolt full spools in 2003 it was purely due to the demand we were getting from customers. And at that time We had plenty of open carriers in stock for fairly cheap AND there was already a mini spool available and we were still able to sell more then we could produce at the time.

What really sucks about the 14 Bolt is the size of the body of the carrier because of the 3rd bearing. This is why it took so long for ARB to come out and why no one else has released a selectable either. Whereas the 10.5 case is huge and will let you do whatever you want so that's a bonus. I'm curious to see how the factory electric locker holds up, I haven't had one in my hands yet to see how they are made but it's a cool option if you can find it.

If you think Ford has done so well with it's drivetrain choices lets talk Dana 50 or the TTB Front or the 6.0L ..... You see every manufacturer has made its share of mis-steps... it's not just a GM thing
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:30 PM   #65 (permalink)
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If you think Ford has done so well with it's drivetrain choices lets talk Dana 50 or the TTB Front or the 6.0L ..... You see every manufacturer has made its share of mis-steps... it's not just a GM thing
The D50 was a perfectly fine axle for the applications it was put in. It's just not a D60 so it's obviously mostly useless to us.

The TTB is awesome. It's a nice middle ground of handling/simplicity/strength between a solid axle and full blown A-arm IFS. Obviously it's not the tool for every job but if you know how to weld and aren't so dumb that you can't figure out the geometry it's a great suspension for all the off road stuff you don't want a solid axle for but can't justify a custom built A-arm IFS for.

The 6.0 is just shit though.

You know the General's cock is down your throat when you list three things some other OEM fucked up and one of them isn't even a fuckup and one of them is a success.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:44 PM   #66 (permalink)
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The D50 was a perfectly fine axle for the applications it was put in. It's just not a D60 so it's obviously mostly useless to us.

The TTB is awesome. It's a nice middle ground of handling/simplicity/strength between a solid axle and full blown A-arm IFS. Obviously it's not the tool for every job but if you know how to weld and aren't so dumb that you can't figure out the geometry it's a great suspension for all the off road stuff you don't want a solid axle for but can't justify a custom built A-arm IFS for.

The 6.0 is just shit though.

You know the General's cock is down your throat when you list three things some other OEM fucked up and one of them isn't even a fuckup and one of them is a success.

LOL!

If the D50 was such a success then why was it only used for 4 years as a solid axle?

IMO the only thing the TTB was good for is tire sales..... LOL
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:16 PM   #67 (permalink)
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LOL!

If the D50 was such a success then why was it only used for 4 years as a solid axle?
Because pickups were and are a highly competitive market. Ford needed to increase power and GVWR to keep up with competition and the D50 couldn't stand up to that. It was obsolete. It was fine in its day but as the power and weight kept increasing it needed to go. They massively upgraded the D60 at and drive-lines at the same time as well.

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IMO the only thing the TTB was good for is tire sales..... LOL
It's a great off road IFS that actually can net decent travel without massive amounts of fabrication and packages really well. In a buggy where you can build around the suspension A-arms are great. In a full bodied rig the TTB is pretty nice.

If beam axles sucked that bad then why did the 2wd E and F series keep using them?
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:45 PM   #68 (permalink)
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It's a great off road IFS that actually can net decent travel without massive amounts of fabrication and packages really well. In a buggy where you can build around the suspension A-arms are great. In a full bodied rig the TTB is pretty nice.

If beam axles sucked that bad then why did the 2wd E and F series keep using them?
I was being funny

But like the D50 it was great in it's day...
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:52 PM   #69 (permalink)
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i have actually order direct from india for shafts a spool and tools. shipping was cheaper then getting yukon stuff from WA state somehow. got my carrier bearing tools set.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:00 PM   #70 (permalink)
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i have actually order direct from india for shafts a spool and tools. shipping was cheaper then getting yukon stuff from WA state somehow. got my carrier bearing tools set.
Ya, it's nuts that Durasolid can do that... I asked my FedEx Rep about it, because I ordered something to see what their shipping was all about, and I got a 38lb axle baring puller shipped to me from India for $33 shipping via FedEx. My Rep claims that the Indian Government is subsidizing the shipping into the US. What a crock of shit right! How doe you compete with that shit?!
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:52 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I was being funny

But like the D50 it was great in it's day...
Oh, I'm sure it was great at saving a few bucks per vehicle.

A nice shining example: a buddy of mine's dad worked for GM back in the 70s. He was telling us about how the invention of the side post battery saved something like 38 cents of lead per battery since they don't need as much lead to make the terminals poke out the top. That adds up fast when every car you sell gets one.

I think in the realm of axles, the performance and load carrying ability is so much closer between 3/4 and 1 tons that it made sense to just throw the heavier beam axle under the front of all of them and eat the cost. Of course, at astronomical new truck prices... I'm betting they can swing it without breaking a sweat. I don't mind, I'm not buying these vehicles new, and it's a total win for wheelers.


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Ya, it's nuts that Durasolid can do that... I asked my FedEx Rep about it, because I ordered something to see what their shipping was all about, and I got a 38lb axle baring puller shipped to me from India for $33 shipping via FedEx. My Rep claims that the Indian Government is subsidizing the shipping into the US. What a crock of shit right! How doe you compete with that shit?!
Interesting. It explains why the few things I have received from India were just as cheap as getting them from Oklahoma. And damn fast too.
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Old 01-31-2019, 06:27 PM   #72 (permalink)
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"Name one thing that's available for the 14 bolt that isn't for the 10.5" so I named 3 since he asked.

And now he doesn't like the fact that I was able to name 3
Don't give yourself so much credit, I don't mind getting proven wrong, this was the soonest I could return to the thread because I work all day. No spool and low ratio availability I'll give you. I bet I could source 40 spline stuff for one in short order if I had the need though. But you're right, "off the shelf" doesn't exist.

BTW do you know what you have to do to a 14B to run 40 spline axles? They don't just fit, and what spindle you have left when bored out to fit 40 spline is pathetic. 14B spindles suck to begin with, making them thinner isn't doing them any favors. I have 14B outers on a custom 9" I built, biggest mistake in aftermarket components I think I've ever made. Went with brand new spindles hubs drive flanges and double spine axle shafts because of all the raving the 14B fanboi's do. Now I know there isn't a single piece of a 14B that I'd use for any reason ever.
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Old 01-31-2019, 06:44 PM   #73 (permalink)
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The Monobeam 50 was never great in it's day nor now .

I have yet to figure out why it exists . Seriously .

The ONLY benefit of a 50 is no carrier break, but who the fawk would put tractor gears on a 50 ? In a toyota okay, something with low power ? Sure...


Tell me it was cost savings and I'll tell you that the extra design/engineering/casting/machine work needed to create the MB50 more than negates the savings .
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Old 01-31-2019, 06:53 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Have you ever had your hands on 404s? They are actually pretty beefy. Some compare stock ones to mildly built 1 tons. That being said, I hate the design of them, but they aren't exactly weak.
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Agree.
Mogs 404 are far stronger than a OEM 14 bolt. They have their weaknesses, such as drum brakes, weird bolt pattern, torque tubes, really heavy, and whatnot, but, the inner axles are strong enough to handle giant (and heavy) tires due to the gear reduction at the axle ends, and the outer axles (after the gear reduction) are plenty beef. Great ground clearance is nice added touch. But they're certainly not for most folks.
The paper-thin cast iron portal boxes negate any other strength advantage the 404 could questionably boast.
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Old 01-31-2019, 07:07 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
Putting the 44 ahead of the 8.8 is false and stupid. It's something a Jeep driving cock gobbler with a 44 would say to feel good about themselves.

The 8.8 carrier has much more beef and the pinion offset is greater making for stronger gears.

As a complete assembly a 44 is about the same as the 28spl 8.8 (why anyone would run one of those is beyond me) in terms of strength (the 8.8 still has a better ring/pinion and carrier though). Compared to the 31spl 8.8 it's not even close. I'd rate the D50 about the same as the 8.8 in the shafts and carrier department but the 8.8 still wins in the ring gear department. Even the JK44 isn't as beefy as a 31spl 8.8.
The 8.8 gears and carrier maybe stronger, but the housing tubes are paper thin and the design of the wheel bearings are completely stupid. I hate to be a hater because I own a Bronco with a 8.8. (I installed a truss and ful-float kit to solve the problems)

I had 35's on a Scout on Dana 44s. Zero problems. Not so on the Bronco.
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