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Old 11-03-2019, 11:29 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Any leads on a set of hummer portals? Still interested in a set for an off the wall project.
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Old 11-04-2019, 04:51 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Any leads on a set of hummer portals? Still interested in a set for an off the wall project.
Not for a sweet deal like trailworthy had. Jesse haines has stated he has tried to monopolize his products by buying all the surplus portals he can. I have a friend selling a set. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1405...61922014074447
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:38 AM   #53 (permalink)
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There is a set of 4 on Dallas CL for $1000. *Not mine* Seems like a deal.....

https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pt...986630626.html


If you need sombody to put eyes on them or ship them to you, let me know.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:57 AM   #54 (permalink)
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FWIW - Do you really need portals? The newer toy IFS with the right LCAs has gobs of ground clearance. IMO it really needs a rear portal axle, not as much of a need in the front. My next generation of my crawler is probably going to use Toyota IFS and IRS in a very similar configuration to Mike's Tacoma and ditch the solid axles and then use a hydraulic KDSS type sway bar set to do my best to match the articulation of solid axles.

It is a surprise that there aren't more options for portal boxes that aren't $$$. They're not particularly complicated. And there's half a dozen versions for the UTV market. They run $3000 for a set of 4. Not sure why we're not seeing an upsize version. The cost to manufacture larger ones isn't that much.


Last edited by jetboy; 11-04-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 11-04-2019, 10:08 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Custom cut gears are $$$. I think gears in the size range we need just aren't very common and tend to be one offs.

I had thought about using some quick change rearend gearsets to make portals. They seem pretty cheap and plenty of potential gear ratios. No idea if they'd handle the torque though.

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Old 11-04-2019, 04:27 PM   #56 (permalink)
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It is a surprise that there aren't more options for portal boxes that aren't $$$. They're not particularly complicated. And there's half a dozen versions for the UTV market. They run $3000 for a set of 4. Not sure why we're not seeing an upsize version. The cost to manufacture larger ones isn't that much.
Im not going to claim to be an expert but I have "custom" portal gears in my portal boxes. The idea is "simple" but the design and manufacturing of portals is not cheap at all. It has a lot to do with the materials, treating processes, and end goal of what you're trying to achieve. If I recall there are only 2 or 3 manufactures capable of cutting gears like this to the needed tolerances in the USA. This increases costs and timelines..........


Sure sxs ones are cheap but won't hold up to 500+ horsepower, I would guess the sxs stuff is weaker then unimog or hummer stuff. The hummer and unimog stuff will last in any rock crawling application without huge upgrades from what iv seen. Guys are upgrading to 300m cvs axles etc but its for reliability in competition, how many are actually breaking them? Why would someone go to the trouble of making something weaker and custom then a already produced OEM application?
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Old 11-04-2019, 04:52 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I had thought about using some quick change rearend gearsets to make portals. They seem pretty cheap and plenty of potential gear ratios. No idea if they'd handle the torque though.

I've also wondered about using quick change gears in custom portal boxes. SCS uses them in their variable ratio straight drive T-cases and they seem to have no problem holding up in 1500+ HP aplications in monster and mega trucks, I bet they could survive in a dedicated crawler. Might even be able to make them survive in road and desert applications if you could get the lubrication stuff sorted.

I'm betting it would work. Sombody needs to 3D model a box that will accept quick change gears and get a set built and tested. If it works, and is even remotely affordable they will make bank.
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Old 11-04-2019, 04:57 PM   #58 (permalink)
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The hummer and unimog stuff will last in any rock crawling application without huge upgrades from what iv seen. Guys are upgrading to 300m cvs axles etc but its for reliability in competition, how many are actually breaking them? Why would someone go to the trouble of making something weaker and custom then a already produced OEM application?

The problem with this is that mog and hummer boxes are getting harder and harder to find and when you do, the price is usually to high to justify, especially seeing as how they are not just a bolt/weld on item in most cases.
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Old 11-04-2019, 05:05 PM   #59 (permalink)
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FWIW - Do you really need portals? The newer toy IFS with the right LCAs has gobs of ground clearance. IMO it really needs a rear portal axle, not as much of a need in the front. My next generation of my crawler is probably going to use Toyota IFS and IRS in a very similar configuration to Mike's Tacoma and ditch the solid axles and then use a hydraulic KDSS type sway bar set to do my best to match the articulation of solid axles.

It is a surprise that there aren't more options for portal boxes that aren't $$$. They're not particularly complicated. And there's half a dozen versions for the UTV market. They run $3000 for a set of 4. Not sure why we're not seeing an upsize version. The cost to manufacture larger ones isn't that much.



The problem I see with Mike's setup is the CV angles. At ride height they are pretty steep, at full droop it borders scary, especially on the wheel side when turning.

If I'm thinking about this correctly, 65chevy4x4 would use the portals for better CV angles at ride height and that would gain him a TON more droop vs Big Mike's and others long travel kits without the crazy CV angles.
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Old 11-04-2019, 05:10 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I've also wondered about using quick change gears in custom portal boxes. SCS uses them in their variable ratio straight drive T-cases and they seem to have no problem holding up in 1500+ HP aplications in monster and mega trucks, I bet they could survive in a dedicated crawler. Might even be able to make them survive in road and desert applications if you could get the lubrication stuff sorted.
Torque is what kills gears. The SCS box's see max of 3.21-1? 1st gear in a T400 plus whatever the TC multiplier is. Now X that by 3 or 4-1 for the rear end gears. So say the QC gears are good for 1000FTLB's. Divide by say 3 for the rear end,then divide that buy what ever the T-case is and then divide by the first gear and you get the motor torque number. It's gonna be pretty low. Hummer gears are considerably larger.

Last edited by bdkw1; 11-04-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:10 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Yeah I am interested in portals so I can gain ground clearance with the lifted style knuckle and not have crazy cv angles.

I already designed a 4x4 tacoma kit with TVs that cycles 18inch of travel. But at full bump ground clearance is limited. A portal would add 4inch or more of clearance and allow me to move the diff up a bit with lower cv angles and keep the travel.
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:23 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Yeah I am interested in portals so I can gain ground clearance with the lifted style knuckle and not have crazy cv angles.

I already designed a 4x4 tacoma kit with TVs that cycles 18inch of travel. But at full bump ground clearance is limited. A portal would add 4inch or more of clearance and allow me to move the diff up a bit with lower cv angles and keep the travel.
Wanna let me know what the sticker price is on that kit so I can appreciate my beams.
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:25 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Maybe instead of traditional portals it would be more worthwhile to look into the "axle shaft is the kingpin" type of setup like a lot of 4wd tractor front axles use. Tire size and horsepower ratings check out. They might burn up at speed though.

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Old 11-04-2019, 06:32 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Wanna let me know what the sticker price is on that kit so I can appreciate my beams.
6800 for kit. Towers. Brake lines. Rcv axles. Warn hubs. Etc. No shocks.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:13 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Maybe instead of traditional portals it would be more worthwhile to look into the "axle shaft is the kingpin" type of setup like a lot of 4wd tractor front axles use. Tire size and horsepower ratings check out. They might burn up at speed though.
Wouldn't you still need some form of bevel gear arrangement to transfer the power down the kingpin and to the knuckle? Once again it seems pricey.

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Old 11-05-2019, 08:18 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Wouldn't you still need some form of bevel gear arrangement to transfer the power down the kingpin and to the knuckle? Once again it seems pricey.

Kevin

Yeah but you could hopefully design around an existing and cheap bevel gear pair from an open diff for a large vehicle.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:49 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Yeah I am interested in portals so I can gain ground clearance with the lifted style knuckle and not have crazy cv angles.

I already designed a 4x4 tacoma kit with TVs that cycles 18inch of travel. But at full bump ground clearance is limited. A portal would add 4inch or more of clearance and allow me to move the diff up a bit with lower cv angles and keep the travel.
In the pic you're already giving up about 4-6 inches of clearance through the area of the control amrs just from the way the lower control arms are designed. I get the reasons for wanting portals. But isn't it easier and cheaper to at grab the low hanging fruit first?

You can see how much more you get on Front Range's setup:


I think the key problem you're going to run into is that it's basically impossible to both go-fast and have big heavy portal boxes out at the wheels. It's an enormous amount of unsprung weight if you're going to make them strong enough to handle much power. A mog portal box is what 150lb? Keeping the weight down requires at a minimum the portal assembly be integrated into the spindle/upright assembly. Even the relatively light weight H1 portals are 80lbs.


As far as cheap portals - I don't think you can find anything cheaper than the H1 portals. The last auction I watched had an H1 complete with a blown engine for $600 - for the whole thing. I'd bet you'd get your $600 back in aluminum scrap from the body and have the boxes for free. But... you've still got to do all the work of getting it, etc. And you still end up with the reverse rotation problem.

Or if you were wanting a production run - there's probably a dozen factories in China who can custom machine any gears you want and fabricate any housing type you want. I'm sure they could clone a mog portal axle for example. Sometimes it's less expensive than you might think. You could potentially even just design a custom spindle assembly that uses H1 portal gears in a different configuration with 4 gears per side to reverse the rotation back. If it were me - I'd start by sending some drawings to a CNC specialty shop like Dongguan Xiexu and see what they could come up with as a suggestion. Design the boxes around OEM wheel bearings or similar so you can use off the shelf sealed bearings. I'm sure there are some other sealed bearings that are smaller OD that could work better.

The other place I'd consider looking for gears if you want off the shelf gears is in various transmission or transfer cases. You'd probably need to double up the gears for strength, but that's another option if you're wanting to fabricate your own portal box. I'm sure there are some transfer case gear combos that could work.

There is also a German tractor but I can't remember the name of it that runs portal boxes. Smaller than a Unimog. But I'm not much help because it's been a few years and I don't remember the brand.

One other really outside the box idea here - you could run a variable angle gear hub to change the CV angle. You could build one from a standard differential center section that offsets the CV angle by 15 or 20*.

Or an alternative version of that - use very heavily positive offset wheels, push the hub way outboard, and just use that extra axle length as a way to reduce the CV angle.


I love the idea of portal axles. It's just so damn hard to make one really work well and be even remotely economical. Good luck with whatever you end up going with!

Last edited by jetboy; 11-05-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:30 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I'm designing a new kit with high clearance lower arms like above as well. One issue with that is lca that you have to really clearance the frame at lca pivot to gain up travel if the lca doesnt have a downward bend in it. Also when adding high clearance bend to lca the shocks now mount higher up into the engine bay and in the way of brake booster and master cylinder. I have ways around both of these and will be getting that kit going next year on my 4runner build.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:03 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Very cool. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

Possibly there's a solution where you use adjustable height air suspension to work around the CV problem. Run at moderate height most of the time with the ability to max out the ground clearance for short distances at lower speeds. It's kinda the Lexus / Land Rover solution. But the idea has merit even if it's not really common in the aftermarket.

Since I'm randomly throwing out other ideas - if you're re-building the coilover tower - it could work pretty well to design around a Raptor front coilover. They're pretty great OEM coilovers and they're dirt cheap. If you were planning to sell aftermarket parts to the Toyota community, the ability to run Raptor takeoff front suspension parts could really help reduce the cost of entry. Avoiding the cost of custom length coilovers could go a long way toward selling them.

Good luck!
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:29 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Very cool. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

Possibly there's a solution where you use adjustable height air suspension to work around the CV problem. Run at moderate height most of the time with the ability to max out the ground clearance for short distances at lower speeds.

OffRoadOnly makes the AirRock system, which could be worked into this idea.
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