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Old 06-07-2019, 12:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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9" pinion snout bushing vs bearing

Not all up on my 9" lingo so forgive. There seems to be a real problem with the pro gears eating up the small support bearing so what about going with a bushing instead? Could be something you change between race events. I did some surfing but didn't find anything and doubt I'm the first to think of it.
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 66CJdean View Post
Not all up on my 9" lingo so forgive. There seems to be a real problem with the pro gears eating up the small support bearing so what about going with a bushing instead? Could be something you change between race events. I did some surfing but didn't find anything and doubt I'm the first to think of it.
We ran the bushing and in the Ultra 4 racing it burns it up almost immediately.
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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We ran the bushing and in the Ultra 4 racing it burns it up almost immediately.
That was the answer I was sort of expecting due to the load its under. 800 HP 40" tires and the skinny peddle to the floor = not good bushing life.
The fact that I could not find any for sale clued me in that it had been tried 40-50 years ago and found to not be an answer at all.
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Old 06-07-2019, 03:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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could you cut some out of support bearing surface and press fit bearing Shaft Sleeve to pinion
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Old 06-07-2019, 03:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've heard people are eliminating the inner cage on that bearing and adding in more rollers going with no inner cage at all. I've heard that on the true hi9 so I'd guess it would work elsewhere but I have no idea of the longevity.
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Old 06-07-2019, 05:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I've heard people are eliminating the inner cage on that bearing and adding in more rollers going with no inner cage at all. I've heard that on the true hi9 so I'd guess it would work elsewhere but I have no idea of the longevity.
We do this at work on some of the pinion gears in planetary box's that see a lot of load. While it's an easy way to almost double the load capacity, it creates more than twice the heat. These were only spinning around 1500RPM max. On a 9" where you were running high average speeds it could melt down.
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Old 06-07-2019, 05:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Gear works happened to post some good tech today on Instagram about this exact thing. I think there was three post total. A lot of it was over my head honestly.

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByazuC9h...=1wmxnf5up1t4r

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByY0xrdh...d=c76eqoojvcnj


https://www.instagram.com/p/ByYxrvMh...d=57g0j1eun3am
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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someone should try using an oil pump and put an oiling port(or 3) in the bronze bushing similar to how they oil bearings in an engine
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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someone should try using an oil pump and put an oiling port(or 3) in the bronze bushing similar to how they oil bearings in an engine
I can spiral groove it for the oil to pump its way through no problem and in a low pinion it's submerged in oil.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I can spiral groove it for the oil to pump its way through no problem and in a low pinion it's submerged in oil.
im thinking neither of those is sufficient hence the failures, not sure if it would work but more oil flow with high pressure(from a pump, mechanical or electric) may help keep it cooler and lubed so it survives, like crank and rod bearings inside an engine.
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Doesn't spin fast enough for a good hydrodynamic wedge most of the time.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:22 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Gear works happened to post some good tech today on Instagram about this exact thing. I think there was three post total. A lot of it was over my head honestly.

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByazuC9h...=1wmxnf5up1t4r

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByY0xrdh...d=c76eqoojvcnj


https://www.instagram.com/p/ByYxrvMh...d=57g0j1eun3am
Too bad he didn't tell us how he calculated the separation forces.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Altec used to sell the bronze bushings but I don't think they do any more. The speed the pinion is spinning in a 5.38/5.43 R&P is so fast that the 3rd pinion bearing slings the oil out even when its completely submerged in gear lube. Shawn stated above that we tried the bushing in the EMC class racing with U4. That's with Mega Hi 9's front and rear. We've also tried everything we can think of including the cageless all roller 3rd pinion bearing. We think it slings the oil out without creating a vacuum to get oil pulled back in between the rollers on the high speed full throttle runs and the rollers gall the races. We're back to running a caged bearing for the space between the rollers to let oil in and running the oil level over the top of the 3rd pinion bearing itself. Shawn changes the 3rd pinion bearing every race and we carry them to change at the race if we need to. Even on a short qualifying run the first thing we check on the car for race prep is the 3rd pinion bearings.

Shawn can also snap the 3rd bearing nub off the end of the pinion. That's happened more than a hand full of times.

If I was comp crawling I'd run the bronze bushing no problem. Even low geared with a 6.50:1 ratio I think it would be a great upgrade that would completely eliminate gear deflection (barring case flex).
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If you have to change bearings every time you drive a vehicle why not upgrade to a 14 bolt?
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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If you have to change bearings every time you drive a vehicle why not upgrade to a 14 bolt?


A 14 bolt is NOT an upgrade. Just extra weight. No one winning in ultra4 is running a 14B, no one running a 14B is even in the conversation on the topic of who's competitive.

The mega hi and gearworks ring and pinions are over $1000 a set. Junking a thousand dollar gear set for a failed $12 dollar bearing is bad math. We change them as a good practice for checking it every race. All the top 4400 guys do the same. Many are sending their diffs back to Gearworks every single race just making sure they don't have a failure taking them out of a race they traveled 1000 miles to.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I run the bushings, hi9 front and rear for the last 4 years. They last a season, about 300 miles of racing. 5.38, 37s, about 400hp at the motor. Switch to a low pinion in the rear after koh18. The low pinion uses the reg bearing. Bought my first set of bushings from altec then made my own after that. You need the proper clearance so that they will not burn up.

Last edited by OCM; 06-12-2019 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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A 14 bolt is NOT an upgrade. Just extra weight. No one winning in ultra4 is running a 14B, no one running a 14B is even in the conversation on the topic of who's competitive.

The mega hi and gearworks ring and pinions are over $1000 a set. Junking a thousand dollar gear set for a failed $12 dollar bearing is bad math. We change them as a good practice for checking it every race. All the top 4400 guys do the same. Many are sending their diffs back to Gearworks every single race just making sure they don't have a failure taking them out of a race they traveled 1000 miles to.

Race prep with a 14b is just to check itís oil level & top off with Walmart supertech gear oil as needed. I think $$$ can be used better somewhere else.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Any idea what temps a diff runs during use?
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The mega hi and gearworks ring and pinions are over $1000 a set. Junking a thousand dollar gear set for a failed $12 dollar bearing is bad math. We change them as a good practice for checking it every race. All the top 4400 guys do the same. Many are sending their diffs back to Gearworks every single race just making sure they don't have a failure taking them out of a race they traveled 1000 miles to.
its wild to think u4 is getting to TT level prep

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Race prep with a 14b is just to check itís oil level & top off with Walmart supertech gear oil as needed. I think $$$ can be used better somewhere else.
unsprung weight makes cars fast and fast cars win.
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