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Old 10-19-2019, 11:17 AM  
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Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
Didn't Fred Williams break one trying to rock bounce a hacked up 2nd gen?
Iíd love to know if he did! If it takes a 7000lb with a 5.9 to break one, that makes me pretty confident in them.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:21 PM  
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Wondering why 99-04 outers if your keeping it 8 lug? 05+ stuff is bigger and already 35 spline. And why not just use the whole 99-04 housing? Not knocking just wanting to understand the logic.
Short answer is that earlier axle has more driver side tube to work with. LOL. At one point in time I had '94, '02, and '06 60's on hand. For sure the '05 up makes the earlier housings look like noodles in comparison. Did not want to fawk around with re-tubing!
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:46 PM  
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Iíd love to know if he did! If it takes a 7000lb with a 5.9 to break one, that makes me pretty confident in them.
They did, V10 truck with no body but a bunch of cage, probably still well north of 6,000 pounds. They were also flat footing the thing trying to force it up Cable Hill when it broke. It apparently blew the unit bearing up when that happened though, wheel and tire exited the vehicle while they were recovering it.
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:25 PM  
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I still haven’t heard of anyone breaking a dodge UB stub either.
I'm pretty sure Will Stewart broke a bunch of RCV Dodge stubs on his rock bouncer.

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I can't believe I've never seen any of this anywhere. This is the epitome of a junkyard build! Thank you
It has been on the board for a while tho...

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Old 10-20-2019, 04:57 PM  
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Iíve watched lots of RCV stuff break, when I donít think it should have. Just an opinion on my half.

Does anyone know if the stub Fred broke was stock? As far as I know, the Yukon chromo stubs have only been out for a few years. Custom ones have been made in the past, but they werenít cheap.

This is all to my knowledge though. I could be way off.
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Old 10-21-2019, 08:34 AM  
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Google terms like scrub radius, king pin inclination/steering axis's inclination, Ackerman, tire slip angle, parallel steering, toe. Try to grasp a basic understanding of steering geometry terminology. Understand what each part does individually and how it affects handling and steering as a whole.

By studying from respected sources you can learn a lot and dispel a lot of the BS.

Toe, something you can easily change. Try 0 or even toed out...... My rig handles better toed out a touch. The SD axles I’ve done like toed out......

Pitch axis, how come a SWB and big tires don't mix well ? Many a rig would work better with a smaller tire than larger, why ?

A man smarter than I pounded in some basic steering/suspension fundamentals. Challenged me to research on my own. Learned plenty by doing so.
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Old 10-21-2019, 10:27 AM  
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08 Superduty build

Looking to build an 08 Superduty 60 for my TJ. I just pulled the trigger on the Artec truss, 1550 shafts, yukon grizzly, 5:38 gears, Artec high steer weld on steering for the OEM knuckles and the Barnes 7/8 heom crossover steering. Still gotta figure out the unit bearings...I run 8x6.5 wheels. Not sure if I'll redrill myself or get the Braniks. Good luck with the build!
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Old 10-21-2019, 10:50 AM  
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If the guy above did some research he might of decided on a different path.

Dunno what his end use is so maybe he has all he needs.
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Old 10-22-2019, 09:18 AM  
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acke...ering_geometry

Good explanation of Ackerman and how/ why it works. Will also help setup of it.
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Old 10-22-2019, 09:22 AM  
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Originally Posted by red4golf View Post
Looking to build an 08 Superduty 60 for my TJ. I just pulled the trigger on the Artec truss, 1550 shafts, yukon grizzly, 5:38 gears, Artec high steer weld on steering for the OEM knuckles and the Barnes 7/8 heom crossover steering. Still gotta figure out the unit bearings...I run 8x6.5 wheels. Not sure if I'll redrill myself or get the Braniks. Good luck with the build!
Sounds damn near like my build. @patooyee on here sells a real nice jig for drilling to 8x6.5 on your own. I have it and will definitely use it on mine. I have decided against the weld on high steer setup and will be sending my knuckles to @FORDTECHGURU (weaverfab) to be machined and get his arms. Seems to be the best piece of mind for my build.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:32 AM  
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Of all places, the RC car guys have plenty of good information. Typically the RCers can make subtle adjustments to the chassis. This a decent knowledge base.
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:04 AM  
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Of all places, the RC car guys have plenty of good information. Typically the RCers can make subtle adjustments to the chassis. This a decent knowledge base.
I agree, I've thought this for a long time. I used to setup IFS/IRS cars constantly, playing with the geometry front to back. It's a bit different handling with solid axle cars since the body rolls a little differently and the solid axle is more limited to what you can adjust, but overall it's very easy to buy a typical RC car and watch as subtle suspension and chassis changes effect the performance. Definitely learned the most from this and I think most people on here should give it a try.
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:56 AM  
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Originally Posted by red4golf View Post
Looking to build an 08 Superduty 60 for my TJ. I just pulled the trigger on the Artec truss, 1550 shafts, yukon grizzly, 5:38 gears, Artec high steer weld on steering for the OEM knuckles and the Barnes 7/8 heim crossover steering. Still gotta figure out the unit bearings...I run 8x6.5 wheels. Not sure if I'll redrill myself or get the Braniks. Good luck with the build!
This is exactly what I built, except full hydro with a 10" ram and an ARB. Narrowed passenger tube, and built my own version of the Artec Ram Mount/skid. With the pinion at 6 degrees, I rotated the C's back to 14 degrees of caster and it drives great. I bought the drill guides from @patooyee and drilled the hubs out myself. Mostly so I can drill my own spares as well in the future. I just enlarged the holes in the rotors until they fit. Gotta love that you can buy a factory 1550 shaft with seals and U-Joint for $170 each! I only had to have the long side cut and re-splined. I whole heartedly recommend this route, very happy with it. Being cast steel rather than iron, the 05'+ knuckles dont seem to have the problem with weld-on arms that the earlier ones did. With a 10" cylinder on the Artec arms, I ended up with about 38 degrees of steering.
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Old 10-22-2019, 04:17 PM  
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let's phrase it this way: in a high slip environment (offroad) and a low traction surface (offroad) what kind of slip angle are you getting that is low enough to be influenced by the minimal influence of high ackerman angle?

i'm in the "not important in offroad" camp. for a rock crawler or trail rig, the cornering speed isn't high enough to matter about weight transfer or contact patch.

"off road racing" also runs such a (relative to road racing) large sidewall and soft tire, that patch slip isn't well controlled anyways. the tire can withstand a pretty big amount of deformation before it gets forced by the wheel/steering. turning in dirt is more about the tire digging in to the ground and building or following a "rut", not maintaining high load and contact at the patch to get grip to have the inside tire help pull through the corner.

edit: that being said, what would I consider to be important when setting up knuckle and steering arm length? Making sure you don't break your shit how much angle can your knuckle and axle physically handle? 30*? 40*? 50*? set your steering stop (ram or other physical) so that your tire, without regard to inside or outside, does not go beyond your physical limit. For a higher speed rig, most of your cornering is going to come from your outside tire, if you want the most steering, then you want that tire to maximize angle. That means you will either have neutral ackerman (// steering) or negative ackerman (inside, low weight tire will toe IN). extremes should be avoided, because you don't want to have your inside tire push you out of a corner in the event it is getting traction.

building with high ackerman is silly, for a high speed dirt rig, because then you are limiting the angle of your outside tire to whatever the max physically allowed is by the amount of the ackerman for the inside tire, and you would be hoping that your inside tire is going to pull you around the corner. the outside tire does most of the work and is the path that will be followed.

for a dedicated crawler, maybe you want to steer with the inside tire, I dunno, but you won't have weight transfer putting more bias to the outside tire. that would relate more to the 'lower' tire
Quoted you into this thread as it seems very relevant and gives a great explanation of why or why not to work towards high ackerman.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:20 AM  
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Quoted you into this thread as it seems very relevant and gives a great explanation of why or why not to work towards high ackerman.
Some good points there, but how much steering do you really need if your cornering "fast"? High steering angles aren't used much at any substantial rate of speed. For cars its mostly used in parking lots and residential streets. I doubt on the highway it comes into play much.

I guess, when going "fast" offroad, I can't see that you'd loose much steering potential by having ackerman. Would you need 40* of steering on the outside tire when hittin the whoops at 60? I dunno, but I think at that point you've got bigger issues coming up quickly.

I too don't think ackerman is necessary for an offroad rig, but if it sees any kind of street time it gets ackerman. I wouldn't want to break down in the mall parking lot after all.

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Old 10-23-2019, 11:18 AM  
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Some good points there, but how much steering do you really need if your cornering "fast"? High steering angles aren't used much at any substantial rate of speed. For cars its mostly used in parking lots and residential streets. I doubt on the highway it comes into play much.

I guess, when going "fast" offroad, I can't see that you'd loose much steering potential by having ackerman. Would you need 40* of steering on the outside tire when hittin the whoops at 60? I dunno, but I think at that point you've got bigger issues coming up quickly.

I too don't think ackerman is necessary for an offroad rig, but if it sees any kind of street time it gets ackerman. I wouldn't want to break down in the mall parking lot after all.

Kevin
Well, I'm learning as i go. That post was good reason to believe that akerman isn't as necessary as some would have you think when building for offroad. Even if there will be a minimal amount of on road driving, i still don't think ackerman is super important. I get ther reason for it, i understand how to achieve it, but not, at this point in my tutelage, sure if it's worth fighting, and building for it.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:39 AM  
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Some good points there, but how much steering do you really need if your cornering "fast"? High steering angles aren't used much at any substantial rate of speed. For cars its mostly used in parking lots and residential streets. I doubt on the highway it comes into play much.

I guess, when going "fast" offroad, I can't see that you'd loose much steering potential by having ackerman. Would you need 40* of steering on the outside tire when hittin the whoops at 60? I dunno, but I think at that point you've got bigger issues coming up quickly.

I too don't think ackerman is necessary for an offroad rig, but if it sees any kind of street time it gets ackerman. I wouldn't want to break down in the mall parking lot after all.

Kevin
just another reason why I think it isn't important enough to be worth considering, outside of avoid extremes. with minimal steering angle, the inside vs outside matter even less. a couple degrees? your tires will slip that with no problem. hell, with what we deal with, your tires will FLEX that with no problem without regard for slip. you *won't* break because of ackerman at low speed. when I was running a full spool on the street my tires would slip often not from angle and it never broke anything, though it would push outside (understeer) because of the inside tire grip.

however, if you DO hit a big swerve like a surprise washing machine in the desert, would you want to limit yourself on available steering just so your lightweight/low impact tire could slip a little less? i'd say no. if anything, negative ackerman that toes the inside tire in might just be a little bit more 'safe', that tire is going to slip anyways or not do much for getting you around the corner, a touch of toe in will keep the joint/knuckle from being maxed out in the event it hits something or wants to flop or whatever.

there are plenty of neat photos from short course and such where somebody comes off a jump with speed and then needs to catch the brakes and dive into a corner with moderate speed, those are throwing weight to the outside and using high steering angle. does 1-5* matter at that point? I dunno, but i'd rather have the extra angle biased towards the driving tire

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Well, I'm learning as i go. That post was good reason to believe that akerman isn't as necessary as some would have you think when building for offroad. Even if there will be a minimal amount of on road driving, i still don't think ackerman is super important. I get ther reason for it, i understand how to achieve it, but not, at this point in my tutelage, sure if it's worth fighting, and building for it.
there are so many things that are important that ackerman doesn't rank. steering ratio and max angle, static toe and caster, static camber and camber gain, bump steer, king pin angle, those things will impact how it tracks and drives down the road and are pretty independent of the axle chunck/width/knuckle.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:44 AM  
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In real world you either have Ackerman or you don't. Same OEM front axle and same TR location irrespective of the vehicle WB.

Only OEM rig I know of offhand that used a common front axle but a different knuckle/TR arm location (thus Ackerman) was the early HP44`s. Ford had a different steering arm cast into the knuckle for the F150 vs. the SWB Bronco`s.

One subject I strongly disagree is this comment cut from above and pasted here.

"how much angle can your knuckle and axle physically handle? 30*? 40*? 50*? set your steering stop (ram or other physical) so that your tire, without regard to inside or outside, does not go beyond your physical limit"

You never use a steering part as a steering stop. Always a positive stop on the knuckle itself. In the same breath the ram travel matches the TR travel. No exceptions.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:55 AM  
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I`ll mention this here and on the other thread.

At some point the "parts" and tire clearance limit what you can do with the steering angle. Its within those limits that you have to decide what setup works best for you.

Personally I like to have Ackerman even if it does limit my SA by a degree or two.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:00 PM  
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One subject I strongly disagree is this comment cut from above and pasted here.

"how much angle can your knuckle and axle physically handle? 30*? 40*? 50*? set your steering stop (ram or other physical) so that your tire, without regard to inside or outside, does not go beyond your physical limit"

You never use a steering part as a steering stop. Always a positive stop on the knuckle itself. In the same breath the ram travel matches the TR travel. No exceptions.
yeah I agree with you, guess I wasn't clear. when I said "ram or other physical" was a reference to the setting the steering limit with a hard part. I have Toyota knuckles, they famously get something like 30* of angle at the knuckle, so simply because I have a shaft with a joint that can handle 45* of angle, my steering is going to be limited, specifically in my case by the ram using internal stops, to the lowest amount of angle the steering parts can handle. I won't set my ram and steering arms to accommodate the 45* of angle the shaft joints can handle, because it will just split open my knuckle.

If I were NOT using a hydraulic ram, then a physical stop, such as a bolt and tab, that met with a strong part, such as decent surface area of a knuckle and the axle housing, would suffice and it would be set just under the max angle the steering parts can see.

so a super magic super duty custom knuckle that can handle 50* of steering would be stopped at 50* or 49* etc., but there would be no reason to stop it at the same 30* that I need to limit my Toyota junk to.

mobile steering parts will determine your max steering angle (assuming your tire and chassis can handle it) and then external physical stops need to hold your limits
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:01 PM  
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I`ll mention this here and on the other thread.

At some point the "parts" and tire clearance limit what you can do with the steering angle. Its within those limits that you have to decide what setup works best for you.

Personally I like to have Ackerman even if it does limit my SA by a degree or two.
agree
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:53 PM  
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Ackerman is a good thing, negative is almost never good, even in dirt.. ever seen a rockwell rig with front steering. Its not pretty. Short wheelbase rigs and wide axles need it more. Since its gain is proportional with steering angle, at high speeds and low steering angles its relatively minimal and if you are experiencing slip then the inside tire having an increased degree of steering to help pull the car in the intended direction isn't hurting anyways. This is saying you have both tires on the ground. Ackerman is generally never perfect for any rig, design constraints typically have it reduced to a far longer wheelbase than ideal anyways.(Less inside tire angle) ideal is really relative to racing style. 4x4 stuff that tracks reasonably well will like some ackerman in almost all circumstances, if you are drifting the ass out of every corner (oversteering it), then maybe it hurts you but you probably aren't winning anyways.. if you have to turn left to go right kind of racing then your prolly at the wrong forum.. .02
anyways, keep the builds coming..
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:02 PM  
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Would camber not help where Ackerman is limited? Camber is easily achieved when turning by building in a good amount of caster. Caster when turning becomes negative camber on the outside tire and positive camber on the inside tire.

Or am I way off base?
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:55 PM  
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Would camber not help where Ackerman is limited? Camber is easily achieved when turning by building in a good amount of caster. Caster when turning becomes negative camber on the outside tire and positive camber on the inside tire.

Or am I way off base?
camber is not related to ackerman.

the question to address is simply: what can be done to maximize transfer of power into the ground?

that power gets transferred at the tire contact patch, the maximum HP the patch can handle depends on the ground surface limits, the tire construction and the tire size.

tire slip is like a loud exhaust, turning HP into noise

keeping our contact patch as large as possible is where camber/caster comes in to play, as the tire moves up and down, relative to the chassis and ground around the suspension. the outside tire gets more weight, so it sees more force and naturally can handle more HP, up to the limits of the ground. it will bias the inside tire to rolling towards a smaller contact patch, but with less weight, it doesn't much matter.

this is all from the point of view of working at the extreme edge as that is where it matters. does it matter if you are never putting more stress than the tire patch/ground can handle? No, because it won't slip and you will be able to go around the corner as fast as you are able. anywhere under the curve of tire/gound HP load it won't matter.

if you are somewhere with a high HP rating, like a race tire and good track, so that you can keep load on the inside tire with the rest of the suspension geometry, and you find that you are able to slip the inside tire more than ideal for max HP transfer, then you might be able to 'tune' the ackerman gain through different steering arm //gram design and see if you are able to get more HP through that front tire for a quicker turn.

though there are few areas where it really matters and even fewer to the average builder. I'll gladly take whatever design from somebody who spends much more time and energy into this, like @FORDTECHGURU, and be happy. if I were going to build my own arms, clearance from the tires, strength of the connection and length for steering ratio are going to be my primary concerns, with the very last thought being to max sure that I don't have an extreme (let's say 3* or more) difference in ackerman either way. if it understeers or oversteers a touch, that is easy to take care of in suspension design and steering wheel input
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Old 10-25-2019, 04:07 PM  
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I tried no or a little reverse Ackerman first time out with my little truggy, then after a couple trips wanted to redesign my arms, so I made them with Ackerman almost 100%, the improvement was awesome. With Ackerman the truggy dident lean in corners near as much, it fixed my leaning so much I never installed the sway bar I got for it. Without the Ackerman I thought it drove good and never would have known the improvement if I dident just want to try some things out. The front outside wheel would push so hard in the soft stuff that it would make my rear end cum up, thats in slow and fast driving, it almost acted like rear steer, or like you have a bad shock. I will never design a front A-arm rig without it. I think a rock rig would see even a bigger problem because of the off camber spots you get into, the rear unloading could cause a flop or at least a loading on the front outside wheel in a turn that would cause all kinds of unneeded stress on the parts and driver.

Im no expert just sharing my findings
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https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/dese...angle-ifs.html

The red font is subjective depending upon speed.

In this thread from 2012 they also said that Shannon was running parallel.
There is also 2014 information that Scherer changed from parallel to positive Ackerman to free up and speed up the car in corners.
And Hector is going to be running 3 Honda Civics with spoon engines. And on top of that, he just went into Harry's, and he ordered 3 T66 turbos, with NOS. And a Motec exhaust.

Really comes down to how fast you want to be in the dirt vs how much steering angle you want in the rocks.

Lots of information on street and pavement racing commonly using anti-Ackerman, but that does not apply to dirt and rocks. So be careful what context your interpret the information.

Things to consider are:
Sidewall flex which creates more slip angle, we have gone from 37" to 39" to 40" to 42" soft stickes on 17" wheels. Some are now running 20"s which help stiffen up the sidewall. Flex has increased over time.

Wheel base and how critical the Ackerman effect becomes. Long wheel bases without rear steer are going to need all the steering angle they can get in the rocks. Short wheel bases that are racing will need Ackerman to avoid digging in the outside tire and make the car faster.

Steering angles went from 30* to 40* to 45* to 50*. Angle has increased over time. So getting the max angle out of both is not as important as it used to be.

Last edited by HydroDynamic; 10-25-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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