Mounting P/S cooler higher than the reservoir? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 08-14-2004, 01:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Mounting P/S cooler higher than the reservoir?

I am running an earlier style GM pump [teardrop shaped integral reservoir] and a Saginaw box. I recently purchased a Moroso #41200 [finned aluminum cylidrical shaped] cooler to add to the system, on the LP return line from the box to the pump of course.

The mounting location that I have selected is in the vertical, with the top of the cooler about 4 inches above the reservoir. The inlet to the cooler from the box will be on the top, and the outlet from the cooler back to the pump will be on the bottom.

Should I expect to encounter any problems with:

A) Overflowing the reservoir when the engine is stopped.

B) Starving the pump suction when the engine is running.

Thanks, John
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Old 08-14-2004, 09:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Do a search.

You may see overflowing

I dont think it will starve (catavation) the pump. Problem that I see is that there will be air in the cooler when you shut it down and when you start it back up that air will rush to the pump and then you will have air in your system.

Can you run a remote reservior that is above the cooler? That would solve your problems and make a better system.
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUrDerMAN
I am running an earlier style GM pump [teardrop shaped integral reservoir] and a Saginaw box. I recently purchased a Moroso #41200 [finned aluminum cylidrical shaped] cooler to add to the system, on the LP return line from the box to the pump of course.

The mounting location that I have selected is in the vertical, with the top of the cooler about 4 inches above the reservoir. The inlet to the cooler from the box will be on the top, and the outlet from the cooler back to the pump will be on the bottom.

Should I expect to encounter any problems with:

A) Overflowing the reservoir when the engine is stopped.

B) Starving the pump suction when the engine is running.

Thanks, John
The cooler must be lower then the pump, I made that mistake. Like the other post, air will be in the system, fluid runs down hill, the air will generate heat and cavitate, making the system worse. You would be better off with no cooler then it being mounted higher then the pump. After lowering the cooler on my stuff, made a big difference.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It should only need to be lower when you bleed the system. once it's bled, then it could be higher, as the pump pushes the fluid thru, no gravity is needed
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson
It should only need to be lower when you bleed the system. once it's bled, then it could be higher, as the pump pushes the fluid thru, no gravity is needed
Not true. The line from the highest point on the cooler will drain into the reservoir and then when you start it back up that air will be pushed into the reservoir causing air in the system.
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Old 08-15-2004, 10:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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I have done some searching, and of the 90 threads that came up, about 10-12 were somewhat relevant, albeit none were quite 100% on topic.

Here's my thinking, coincidentally why I asked the question in the first place.

Under steady state conditions, i.e. with the engine running, the pump will eventually purge all the air from the system, assuming that the reservoir level is kept high enough for the pump suction to stay flooded.

When the pump is shut down, that portion of the cooler above the reservoir will U-tube drain back to the reservoir, potentially causing overflow, and simultaneously allowing air back into the top end of the cooler. It probably won't happen quickly, but it should happen given enough time. Since my trail rig sits for days without running, I have to assume that it will happen eventually.

It doesn't seem like getting the system purged of air will be a problem, the problem is stopping the U-tubing.

After spending a hour under the rig looking for a spot lower than the reservoir, I could not find one for this particular cooler that would not expose it to trail damage.

I did have a revelation so to speak though; what about installing a check valve on the return line back to the reservoir? Since the hydrostatic head of the elevation difference is only a fraction of a psi, the cracking pressure of the check valve would act analagous to a residual valve on a brake system.

Just trying to think out of the box a bit, since I would prefer not to have to go to a remote reservoir.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-15-2004, 10:59 AM   #7 (permalink)
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In the mid '70s ford mounted a PS cooler on some of their full sized cars that the lines ran over the top of the radiator core suport then down to the cooler. Maybe it worked because the cooler lines pointed straight up instead of to the side. I think I have one of those coolers in the garage and could take a pic if needed.
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Old 08-15-2004, 11:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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I think that I will just give it a try with the check [residual] valve; I have boxes of Swagelok fittings and flex hoses, so it won't take long to hook up, and even less time to reverse, if it doesn't work out.
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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I think I would just raise the top of the filler tube on the reservor so it is higher than the cooler.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUrDerMAN
When the pump is shut down, that portion of the cooler above the reservoir will U-tube drain back to the reservoir, potentially causing overflow, and simultaneously allowing air back into the top end of the cooler. It probably won't happen quickly, but it should happen given enough time. Since my trail rig sits for days without running, I have to assume that it will happen eventually.
Exactally



Quote:
Originally Posted by MUrDerMAN
Just trying to think out of the box a bit, since I would prefer not to have to go to a remote reservoir.

Thoughts?
Why? Your system will be much much happier with a remote reservoir.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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So far, so good; it took just over a quart after draining probably 1 to 1 1/2 pints. I haven't been on the trail to give it a full boogie test, but numerous thermal and start/stop cycles today have indicated favorably. The fluid level in the reservoir doesn't change by more than 1/4" between start and stop, boubles are conspicuously absent, and the pump sounds happy [no cavitation].

It is looking like the residual valve is doing its thing; let's just see if I don't come home to a puddle of P/S fluid on the garage floor this week after it gets a chance to sit for a while. Stay tuned.
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Old 08-15-2004, 10:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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So why isn't this an issue with tranny coolers?
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Old 08-15-2004, 11:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dustball
So why isn't this an issue with tranny coolers?
It is to some degree. Park your rig for a week with the trans right to the full mark and check the fluid level before you start it. That is one of the problems with my current T350. After it sets for a couple of weeks without starting it it leaks from the seal at the fill tube. If I start it every day it doesn't drain back enough to really leak bad.
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Old 08-15-2004, 11:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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I have a Chevy with Hydro-boost brakes. GM went to the trouble to mount a remote PS reservoir at a level above the brake booster unit. There's a good reason for this. Mounting a cooler or anything else above the reservoir can air lock the inlet side of the pump and wreck it.
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