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Old 03-24-2005, 10:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Bolt On Portals

Saw this ad for a bolt on portal box in the May issue of Four wheeler - no affiliation. Contact info is www.tkojeeps.com .Discuss.......
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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looks like it would place way too much stress on the balljoints and way too much tire scrub (like running 0" of BS plus additional 2" of wheel spacers, and then some)
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah, the pic shows a bj knuckle, but they say it bolts up to a kp knuckle

Specs:

8.30" Drop

2:1 Gear ratio

2" Face width high alloy gears

3 Gear design to maintain standard axle rotation

These portal gear boxes are desinged for extreme applications. They "bolt" onto a standard front king-pin dana 60 axle. The rear axles require the axle tube to be cut and a flange to be welded on. The boxes were designed to withstand 60,000 ft-lb of torque at each wheel. These portals can be used with wheels from 15" and up and any bolt pattern.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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the kingpins look like they are more than 6" away from the portal wheel flange, then you still have to add the rim backspacing. that is REDICULOUS amounts of scrub on the tire. look at mog or volvo portals, the box is partially in the rim and the lower balljoint extends much further down to the reduction box, spreading out the load
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Three gears in a portal is a bad idea! The assassin had that and they had to replace the bearings with bushings because of the stress that is thrown in so many directions inside the portal. With bushings your not going anywhere at a speed higher than 55. Also I dont think that the kingpin dana 60 inner C is going to be able to take that stress. Mogs have a roller bearing slash kingpin style setup that is alot heavier duty. They also have less drop. Only about 5.5 inches. You have to ask yourself "If three gears is a good idea, why is it that no factory portals have them?" On top of that, according to what i see in that picture, you will need to run tires that are at least 60 inches tall in order for the angle of the kingpin joints to cross the center of the tire which like he said will cause it to scrub hard and add even more stress on the knuckles and steering. All I have to say is it will probably roll out of the garage but the first time the front end pops up and slams back down will be interesting, and by all means don't ever jump it!
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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jeeper111, i dont know about you, but i want some serious, portal poppin carnage. this garage picture shit aint cutting it.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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yeah, but I bet it would work real well with unassisted steering and no anti-wrap provision on flat leafs, like on the jeep pictured!
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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sprung over, none the less

good call

but the yellow paint makes it high performance, you should now this by know
can i get a set of them for my XJ, the stock 3.07 diff turns into a 6.14 just like that, ready to crawl
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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There was a thread on this a few months back and people gave ideas on how to make it stronger. TKO actually replied too
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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I see no reason why the 3 shaft design would be hard on bearings.Transfercases have been designed like this for years. These portal boxes are effectively a low speed transfercase. Maxidrive engineering who make pure bolt on portals for Land/Rangerovers got around the direction of rotation problem by going to a 4 shaft design and displacing the shafts in a
cross pattern like this +. This gives very high strength by spreading the load over twice as many gear teeth but also permits the designer to build a compact box ( 5'' drop) that will fit within the radius of the bead area of a 15'' wheel rim.
As mentioned by others in this thread those yellow boxes are much too tall to fit inside any popular offroad wheel so the scrub radius and bending loads on all the structural axle components are always going to be excessive. Lose one shaft, shrink the box, make it strong and affordable and the offroad world will beat a path to your door.
Bill.

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Old 03-25-2005, 05:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Saw that rig in person as its tow rig almost ran my ass over on sand hill rd. twas a sweet jeep but I knew something was funny about them portals.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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That four gear design sounds like an awsome idea! I still wouldn't put it on a 60, kingpin or not. It would be sweet on a rockwell knuckle though. Definitely wouldn't have a problem there! Throw in that ouverson eight lug kit and some 20 inch beadlocks on 49x21s and I bet you could get pretty close to a standard scrub radius! That would be sweet! Ofcourse everyone on here knows I am a little bias when it comes to rockwells.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Oh and by the way the yeallow paint adds at least 6 horsepower per portal box. Usually it doesn't hold up well on an axle but in this case I think the paint will outlast the axle!
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:07 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Is that LEGO?

Seriously, why even bother when there are unimog axles out there? Stock unimog 4XX has to be at least thrise as strong?

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Old 03-26-2005, 02:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Old 03-26-2005, 03:35 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I wonder what the gears look like inside. When I think about a 3 gear portal, I don't think of them all stackedup in a straight line, but more like a triangle [>] and very close together. Top gear, then the middle off to the side and lower, and the bottom directly under the top. make sense? lots of teeth, high strength alloy. seems like you could do it with something closer to 5" of drop. Being able to fit inside (at least partially) a standard size wheel like a 16.5 would be nice.

Attaching it so it won't break off seems like a tougher obstacle, though.
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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I am not sure but I think the triangulated 3 gear portal may produce excessive bearing loadings on the intermediate gear as Jeeper3 suggested ealier. I also recall that early Landcruiser transfercase housings which were also triangulated would occasionally explode when the intermediate gear bearings got slack due to the offset forces acting on the intermediate gear, wheras LandRover ones, on which the shafts are stacked in a straight line would never explode the case even when the intermediate bearings disintegrated completely.
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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I still think that a planetary setup would work better, maintain correct rotation, and be compact enough to fit inside the wheels. Any portal box is going to have to be designed around a new knuckle to work right. Here is something I drew up a while ago. the top gear is driven by the axle, which drives the ring gear which drives the bottom gear which would be splined to a stub shaft sticking through the spindle, everything is drives the same direction, and the overall package would could probably be less than 12 inches in diameter, and it would be more expensive to make work than that three gear design above.

http://img70.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img70...ternal68xp.png

edit: I apologize for the link,, image shack doesn't seem to allow for the pictures to post in the forum anymore, or I'm too stupid to figure it out.

chad

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Old 03-26-2005, 09:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Is in me or do those look a awful lot like Dana 300s?
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Old 03-26-2005, 09:03 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Old 03-26-2005, 10:09 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I know its the may issue, but didn't they do something like this for April Fools in Petersens last year?
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Old 03-26-2005, 10:20 AM   #22 (permalink)
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That drawing is how the front portal axle is in my Kubota tractor. They fit it inside of a 12" rim! I don't know how fast you could go with that setup (tractors top speed is 15mph) Von
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Old 03-26-2005, 11:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vonsmog
That drawing is how the front portal axle is in my Kubota tractor. They fit it inside of a 12" rim! I don't know how fast you could go with that setup (tractors top speed is 15mph) Von

There's no inherent low speed built into the design, the large ring gear acts like an idler, the overall reduction is controlled ratio of the two internal gears, make them the same size and it's one to one. The biggest disadvantage is the very large bearing area for the sun gear, it would require a large probably custom bearing, and since you would probably want helical cut gears for noise, it would have to handle thrust in both direction.
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Old 03-26-2005, 12:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If your going to make them helical gears, make them double helical (herring bone) gears and eliminate the thrust problem.
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Old 03-26-2005, 03:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Yea the internal diameter of that ring gear would be quite large and if you had parralel roller bearings around the outside to support it there'd be a million of em. I just stacked a pair of my spare portal gears together 4 3/4'' drop 1.56:1 ratio and the internal diameter of the ring gear required to surround them would be 9.5 inches. Anyway you dont need three gears to maintain the direction of rotation with an internal ring gear and pinion. Some forklift trucks gain extra reduction at the wheel hubs with this design. The last TTC in Australia was won by a vehicle with internal ring and pinion portals. The problem with the ring and single pinion is that to get a decent offset or drop with a compact box, the ratio then becomes excessively low.

BTW,Straight cut gears in portal boxes hardly generate any heat or make any noise at all. At 70 mph with 36 inch tyres the bottom gear in my portals are only doing about 750 rpm and the upper gear around 1200 rpm. Helicals are an unecessary complication that create other problems. Check the unimog 404 threads re portal boxes exploding.
I have also found that Landrover Diffs lubricate the pinion bearings better when flipped than the normal way around due to the ring gear teeth acting like scoops and throwing heaps of oil at the pinion bearings. Looking at my old Salisbury/Dana 60 R & P I suspect it may do the same .
Bill

Last edited by portalrover; 03-26-2005 at 03:34 PM.
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