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Old 05-11-2005, 04:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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4 link with mogs

ive got the links to where if im understanding correctly they will be working well. this setup will be for my front axle. anti-squat stays pretty level throughout the travel.


how it looks on the truck


if you have comments about the setup id love to hear them, but my main question is about the vertical separation. the meat around the kingpins doesnt hang down low enough to mount the arms on the axle centerline, and id like to keep the arms up as high as possible to not reduce the clearence ive paid so much money for. will the links be able to handle the loads in this setup?
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Old 05-12-2005, 08:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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ttt for day crew.
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:17 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Personally, I'd like to see more separation. The axle tube is much thicker as it moves toward the differential. What about mounting the upper links more inboard on the axle, right next to the diff?
My lower links are mounted low on the axle tube and give good separation without giving up much if anything in the way of clearance.
Your design looks a lot like FrankenRover's and he ended up running a panhard rod and IMO he gave up too much clearance on the lower link mounts--way below the axle. Pics here...
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...7&page=4&pp=25
Here are some pics of my front lower and upper links:
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:19 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:27 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Sorry, no pic after finishing and painting...
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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up next to the portal there is almost no loss of clearance.
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I put my links even with the lower portal bolt. And the uppers were 9" above that. Here's the only pics I could find on short notice:



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Old 05-12-2005, 09:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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also, it is a good idea to run links approximately the same length as the height tire you plan to run.
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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9.5" of vertical separation at the axle is PLENTY.

Edit: am I reading the axis wrong, do you only have 7" of vert sep? If so, I still wouldn't sweat it, but I think you won't hurt anything by lowering the lowers another inch, and making a little more of a ramp so your tires just get caught on an undercut ledge (happened to me a few times).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Mogger
also, it is a good idea to run links approximately the same length as the height tire you plan to run.
Never seen this one before - where'd you get that?
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Last edited by jelbehai; 05-12-2005 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:07 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelbehai
9.5" of vertical separation at the axle is PLENTY.

Edit: am I reading the axis wrong, do you only have 7" of vert sep? If so, I still wouldn't sweat it, but I think you won't hurt anything by lowering the lowers another inch, and making a little more of a ramp so your tires just get caught on an undercut ledge (happened to me a few times).



Never seen this one before - where'd you get that?
It is true, but only if your vertical seperation is equal to your wheel width.....
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEBUGGYMAN
It is true, but only if your vertical seperation is equal to your wheel width.....

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Old 05-12-2005, 11:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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My lowers are a lot like 4moggers', and have no complaints. I have around 9" of vert. separation.
Scout dude- your "pig" is on the wrong side

I'm running 42 TSL's but my links are around 38" long.
and I'm running H1 beadlocks (9" wide)
I thought you were supposed to divide your rigs gross weight by your highest gear ratio (all in high)

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Old 05-12-2005, 11:27 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Here is a LINK to my buddys mog project.
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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38" links with 42" tires falls into my definition of approximately the same.
My point is just that as a general rule it is a good guideline to keep them close to same height/length.
You wouldn't want 30" links and 40" tires.
And especially with his 130" WB he should be considering links in the 40" range since he plans to run 38.5" tires and as the world goes, we all know he will buy 40 or 42" tires down the road.
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:58 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I have a few things....

-I would check out far you want to mount lower arms at the axle. From my measurements that will be right in the middle of the kuckle past the axle flange ( depending on how wide your axles are ).

-Even with 38s your going to get some pretty good rubbing on your upper arms when turning. Mogs can turn about 40-45 degrees without too much trouble. More triangulation will help to move the arm in a little bit, but the pumkin is going to get in the way.

-For 38s you are gonna have a TON of belly clearance. What kinda vehicle are these axles going on? Is it a full buggy or off of a stock frame? Your going to end up SUPER tall if its full body rig and your trying to get that much clearance under the middle. Plus, if you increase tire size in the future your gonna be even bigger. I would build around a little less belly clearance and a little bit bigger tire ( even if you aren't going to run them right away )

-Your COG number looks realistic....thats good.

-Roll-axis sloping back is good. How much compression travel are you going to run? I would try for at LEAST 40% compression. Its hard with portals if your trying to keep overall height down.

-Roll center height is HIGH. I like that, it makes the body roll a lot less when articulating. However if your rear roll center is lower your chassis will oversteer generally ( I say generally because spring rate and CoG distribution effects all this too ). I would shoot to keep the rear roll center at least the same if not slightly higher. I would rather has a slight bit of understeer than oversteer. This is all on-road, faster dirt road type stuff.

-Instant center X-axis is a bit short. Having it longer will help the chassis react softer when changing torque input. This is also a function of your Anti-squat numbers...but related.

ok.....I'll stop....it does look good though. The changes are all going to be less than an inch here and there.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser
I have a few things....

-I would check out far you want to mount lower arms at the axle. From my measurements that will be right in the middle of the kuckle past the axle flange ( depending on how wide your axles are ).

-Even with 38s your going to get some pretty good rubbing on your upper arms when turning. Mogs can turn about 40-45 degrees without too much trouble. More triangulation will help to move the arm in a little bit, but the pumkin is going to get in the way.

-For 38s you are gonna have a TON of belly clearance. What kinda vehicle are these axles going on? Is it a full buggy or off of a stock frame? Your going to end up SUPER tall if its full body rig and your trying to get that much clearance under the middle. Plus, if you increase tire size in the future your gonna be even bigger. I would build around a little less belly clearance and a little bit bigger tire ( even if you aren't going to run them right away )

-Your COG number looks realistic....thats good.

-Roll-axis sloping back is good. How much compression travel are you going to run? I would try for at LEAST 40% compression. Its hard with portals if your trying to keep overall height down.

-Roll center height is HIGH. I like that, it makes the body roll a lot less when articulating. However if your rear roll center is lower your chassis will oversteer generally ( I say generally because spring rate and CoG distribution effects all this too ). I would shoot to keep the rear roll center at least the same if not slightly higher. I would rather has a slight bit of understeer than oversteer. This is all on-road, faster dirt road type stuff.

-Instant center X-axis is a bit short. Having it longer will help the chassis react softer when changing torque input. This is also a function of your Anti-squat numbers...but related.

ok.....I'll stop....it does look good though. The changes are all going to be less than an inch here and there.
Wow. Uh, yeah, what he said.

Last edited by 4Mogger; 05-12-2005 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:36 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelbehai
9.5" of vertical separation at the axle is PLENTY.

Edit: am I reading the axis wrong, do you only have 7" of vert sep? If so, I still wouldn't sweat it, but I think you won't hurt anything by lowering the lowers another inch, and making a little more of a ramp so your tires just get caught on an undercut ledge (happened to me a few times).
ya, ive got 7" on the graph. i could probably move the uppers up a little easier without effecting the clearence on the lower.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Mogger
38" links with 42" tires falls into my definition of approximately the same.
My point is just that as a general rule it is a good guideline to keep them close to same height/length.
You wouldn't want 30" links and 40" tires.
And especially with his 130" WB he should be considering links in the 40" range since he plans to run 38.5" tires and as the world goes, we all know he will buy 40 or 42" tires down the road.
i put in 38.5 because thats the rolling radius of my 40's. i plan to get up to probably 44" or 45" truck tires for the road.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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first off, awesome input, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser
I have a few things....

-I would check out far you want to mount lower arms at the axle. From my measurements that will be right in the middle of the kuckle past the axle flange ( depending on how wide your axles are ).
ill have to check measurements again, but i do believe that this puts the mount right next to the lower kingpin.
Quote:
-Even with 38s your going to get some pretty good rubbing on your upper arms when turning. Mogs can turn about 40-45 degrees without too much trouble. More triangulation will help to move the arm in a little bit, but the pumkin is going to get in the way.
im actually planning to crank them closer to 50* if i can. the uppers might be tight and i can get some bends in there to help clear if needed. i think the lowers will be pretty clear. with the disc conversion i have on the axle, it has a large steering sweep. so the tire will be out a bit further, but it will probably make things worse as well.
Quote:
-For 38s you are gonna have a TON of belly clearance. What kinda vehicle are these axles going on? Is it a full buggy or off of a stock frame? Your going to end up SUPER tall if its full body rig and your trying to get that much clearance under the middle. Plus, if you increase tire size in the future your gonna be even bigger. I would build around a little less belly clearance and a little bit bigger tire ( even if you aren't going to run them right away )
these are going under my 98 dodge ram. its a 2500 thats got a curb weight of about 7000 lbs. the frame mount measurements were taken from where the truck is sitting now with the dodge suspension/lift. i think i may be dropping the height down a tad when i mount the coilovers.
Quote:
-Your COG number looks realistic....thats good.
thanks, went with the typical back of the camshaft point.
Quote:
-Roll-axis sloping back is good. How much compression travel are you going to run? I would try for at LEAST 40% compression. Its hard with portals if your trying to keep overall height down.
ive got 16" coilovers and am planning to have 4-5" of bump travel. depends on how low i sit the ride height.
Quote:
-Roll center height is HIGH. I like that, it makes the body roll a lot less when articulating. However if your rear roll center is lower your chassis will oversteer generally ( I say generally because spring rate and CoG distribution effects all this too ). I would shoot to keep the rear roll center at least the same if not slightly higher. I would rather has a slight bit of understeer than oversteer. This is all on-road, faster dirt road type stuff.
the rear is stock leaf setup for now. the packs seem to be handling the torque of the axle and not wrapping much, but i will be testing it more and more. not wanting to go into a truggy right now with the rear so leafs will be much easier. im not sure how to figure out the roll center of a leaf spring setup.
Quote:
-Instant center X-axis is a bit short. Having it longer will help the chassis react softer when changing torque input. This is also a function of your Anti-squat numbers...but related.
ill play with it a bit more and see what i can come up with taking in all of yours and others suggestions.
Quote:
ok.....I'll stop....it does look good though. The changes are all going to be less than an inch here and there.
if you got more suggestions and time to type it out, id love to have them. thanks again.
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Old 05-12-2005, 01:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Keep the lower out by the portal box and as low as the gears. This will keep the axle from wanting to pivot on the leverage gained my the low hanging portals.
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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this is the stats throughout the travel still as configured above. see if this shows up right...

text didnt work. heres a screen shot.
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I like the numbers a lot. If you can get good with bending the uppers to fit with a tad more verticle seperation, mainly at the axle, it would be even better...
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Old 05-12-2005, 08:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I have not heard this one before. What is the reasoning behind it? The longer you make the links (without increasing the total cross section of your link material) the more prone to bending they will be. I'm running under the concept that link length is determined by wheelbase, how much space you have, and how much ofan arc you want your axles to travel in during suspension cycling. Also shouldn't vertical separation be the criteria that changes due to tire height? It is the vert separation that helps to resist the tendency of an axle to roll up under power due to tire leverage. Or am I just missing something. I've done a lot of reading on link axles here on the board and I didn't see any taller tires = longer links needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Mogger
also, it is a good idea to run links approximately the same length as the height tire you plan to run.
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Old 05-12-2005, 08:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueMoose
I have not heard this one before. What is the reasoning behind it? The longer you make the links (without increasing the total cross section of your link material) the more prone to bending they will be. I'm running under the concept that link length is determined by wheelbase, how much space you have, and how much ofan arc you want your axles to travel in during suspension cycling. Also shouldn't vertical separation be the criteria that changes due to tire height? It is the vert separation that helps to resist the tendency of an axle to roll up under power due to tire leverage. Or am I just missing something. I've done a lot of reading on link axles here on the board and I didn't see any taller tires = longer links needed.
i think the reasoning is that (generally) taller tires need a taller lift, and a taller lift needs longer links to have good angles.
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
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For the Red Ram? Do a onelink.
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