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Old 12-23-2005, 01:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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welding guys

Just got my gas hooked up yesterday, for my lincoln 135. I have been welding flux for a while now, so I got real use to that. On my welder, says flux can weld up to 1/4" (.35 wire), which I have for some bumper stuff, and for the co2/argon mix it says 3/16". I have the A,B,C,D for power setting, and 1-10 for wire speed. When welding 1/4" or 3/16" with flux I used D-4. for gas im using .25 wire, and I cant seem to get the weld I want. I had some 1/4" laying around the shop so I went to town and started welding trying to get something good. Seems like the welds are just real big and bulky. I had the welder set on D the whole time, and I was just going through the wire speeds, 5-9 to try to get the weld I want. I know 1/4" is pushing it with my welder, with gas im not going to go over 3/16" for brackets or anything, I just had this 1/4" laying around that was scrap. Any thing I can do to get a nicer weld? I was dragging the welds towards me the whole time, just going in a straight line, not making circles or anything. Here are pictures of some welds...



sorry camera is shit when outside


and here is part of my front frame that was done with flux cored, before I got the gas.


and when welding anything but scrap, I grind down the edges, and get the bead to really sink in. I have not welded anything on my truck with gas yet, I want more practice. What should I do?
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Old 12-23-2005, 01:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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1 you dont want to drag the tip, in general you want to push it.

2. First try a stitch weld, move forward, then back a little, then forward again,basically you get the arc direct to the workpiese to heat it a little extra, then move back to fill.

3. Also try moving the arc side to side in a half moon shape. That will help make a bigger weld with a low power machine.

4. Trade up to a higher power machine... It will make you happier! Ask santa, there may still be time.
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Because fluxcore wire mode burns constantly on the 135 it will go much thicker than mig. In mig mode these machine pulse the power. This is way your heat settings are higher in mig mode. I won't use mine for anything thicker than 10 ga. in mig form. If I want something to stay together I use fluxcore. I'd rather scrape a little slag than take a chance of not enough penetration.
What I should have done was to get the SP175+ instead of the SP135+. My coworkers convinced me to get the 120 volt one in case I wanted to go mobile. I also have redone all the wiring with 30 amp 125 volt plugs and cords. It is recommended for maximum output.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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.025 wire is kinda small for 1/4". If you can get a small spool of .035", try that and see how it runs.

Try slowing the wire speed down even more, it looks like you're getting a lot of filler deposition that you don't need. Slow the wirefeed down and slow your travel speed down as necessary, and make either a circular or half moon pattern to better distribute the arc on the workpiece.

Dragging or pushing the arc both have their applications...for MIG I generally drag, but it's all about watching the filler deposition and moving at the proper speed. You don't want to make up for a fast travel speed by using a fast wire feed setting.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteboy79
.025 wire is kinda small for 1/4". If you can get a small spool of .035", try that and see how it runs.

I was going to say the same thing. In the shop we always run either .030 or 035. We use the .030 in the Miller 130 and .035 in the 172 and 250x machines.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybergeek23851
I was going to say the same thing. In the shop we always run either .030 or 035. We use the .030 in the Miller 130 and .035 in the 172 and 250x machines.
I have a spool of .35, but did not even run it yet, I was told by some guys on this forum that .35 is to large of wire for my 135.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I just went out and put my .35 on, same results except I could weld at a slower wire speed. I cant seem to get a nice thinner weld. I keep getting a weld shown in the 1st picture. I have tried going faster and slower, moving in circles, and half circles, just seems to get me the same weld.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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When you switched from the flux core to the regular wire and gas, did you reverse the polarity on the welder?

For MIG welding (DC+) polarity.
For Flux Core (DC-) polarity.
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Old 12-23-2005, 07:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjeep
When you switched from the flux core to the regular wire and gas, did you reverse the polarity on the welder?

For MIG welding (DC+) polarity.
For Flux Core (DC-) polarity.
yes
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The .025 is great for body work.

Try this for 1/4" : Use .035, stitch weld it - with the tip draw a circle about half or so the diameter of a dime ( take about 1 second ), stop at the leading edge for an instant, move ahead 3/8", draw another circle, etc. Should make a great looking "stacked dimes" weld that is strong as hell up to 1/4" thickness and generally strong enough for all automotive work ( I still use arc with 7018 for spring pads and the heaviest axle work, but the mig is fine for shack mounts etc. )

You'll want to run full power and the feed fast enough so it sounds like bacon sizzling - I'm guessing you need D-7 though I don't have the exact same machine.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Push arcs with .030", heat all the way up and adjust wire feed for your work.
.035" wire is too big for MIG on a 110v machine. .025" is too small for your work size, takes too long.
If you're outside C25 psi at 35 max, inside 25 psi.
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Old 12-24-2005, 08:33 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I thought I explained this earlier in the thread, but sometimes I guess I leave out some information. Lincoln does not recommend this machine to weld anything thicker than 12 ga. They also recommend that only .025 and .030 wire be used with the 135.
What is happening to you is that your not penetrating the base metal and your puddle is spreading out on the top. You simply don't have enough amperage to mig with metal thicker than 12 ga. because of the on /off pulsing the machine does in DC+ (Does anyone hear popcorn?).
I also only use 15 psi inside, and 20 outside with this small machine on my 80/20 mix.
Either buy a new machine, or get the slag hammer out.....
I know this because I wouldn't accept it either.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
Because fluxcore wire mode burns constantly on the 135 it will go much thicker than mig. In mig mode these machine pulse the power. This is way your heat settings are higher in mig mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
You simply don't have enough amperage to mig with metal thicker than 12 ga. because of the on /off pulsing the machine does in DC+ (Does anyone hear popcorn?).
Given these comments perhaps you should stick to carpentry and not offer welding advice, all they show is a total lack of understanding in the differences in metal transfer modes. As always the transfer mode for both FCAW and GMAW depends on the manufacturer of the wire, wire size, shielding gas (if used), voltage, and current. If you think that the power source in a Lincoln 135 “pulses” the power you are a bigger idiot than many of your past posts on this board have led me to believe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
Lincoln does not recommend this machine to weld anything thicker than 12 ga.
We all know that it is impossible to do multiple passes in order to weld thicker weldements, so simply making 3 passes with proper weld prep and 0.024” hardwire is just something that should never be considered.



Back to Multichamps problems:

One of the problems with a Lincoln 135 is that it has a max wire speed of 300 inches per minute which means that it doesn’t have the wire speed to satisfactorily run 0.024” hardwire at much more than ~90A (A Miller 135 has a max wire speed of 600ipm for comparison) . This can also be an issue with the Lincoln 175 with a max wire speed of 400ipm (Miller 175 max wire speed 700ipm).

Given the machines limitations in both duty cycle and wire speed if you want to do 3/16” and 1/4” with hardwire I would stick with 0.024” wire due to the higher current density, ~ 70-85A, run a short stick out, travel angle perpendicular to 10 degree push and make 2-3 passes.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'd say just slow the wire speed down and take your time for best penetration. I have the same machine and I haven't even bothered to buy a bottle of gas for it because I was told the flux core would most likely be better for welding thicker stuff. I'd like to try with gas, but I rarely ever weld anything thin. I like the portability of the 135, I just wish I had the power of the 175. But it seems to work okay with flux core for everything I've needed to weld so far.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmt
Given these comments perhaps you should stick to carpentry and not offer welding advice, all they show is a total lack of understanding in the differences in metal transfer modes. As always the transfer mode for both FCAW and GMAW depends on the manufacturer of the wire, wire size, shielding gas (if used), voltage, and current. If you think that the power source in a Lincoln 135 “pulses” the power you are a bigger idiot than many of your past posts on this board have led me to believe.





We all know that it is impossible to do multiple passes in order to weld thicker weldements, so simply making 3 passes with proper weld prep and 0.024” hardwire is just something that should never be considered.



Back to Multichamps problems:

One of the problems with a Lincoln 135 is that it has a max wire speed of 300 inches per minute which means that it doesn’t have the wire speed to satisfactorily run 0.024” hardwire at much more than ~90A (A Miller 135 has a max wire speed of 600ipm for comparison) . This can also be an issue with the Lincoln 175 with a max wire speed of 400ipm (Miller 175 max wire speed 700ipm).

Given the machines limitations in both duty cycle and wire speed if you want to do 3/16” and 1/4” with hardwire I would stick with 0.024” wire due to the higher current density, ~ 70-85A, run a short stick out, travel angle perpendicular to 10 degree push and make 2-3 passes.
thanks for the info man
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmt
[COLOR="Red"]Given these comments perhaps you should stick to carpentry and not offer welding advice, all they show is a total lack of understanding in the differences in metal transfer modes. As always the transfer mode for both FCAW and GMAW depends on the manufacturer of the wire, wire size, shielding gas (if used), voltage, and current. If you think that the power source in a Lincoln 135 “pulses” the power you are a bigger idiot than many of your past posts on this board have led me to believe.
I wasn't asking for a pissing contest here, but rather to share my experience with this machine. Your comments show that you have little experience with it.
Are you saying that DC+ burns as hot as DC-? Please explain the popcorn sound heard when mig welding. Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing? This is why it requires more amperage to accomplish the same weld as FCAW is capable of!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonmt
[COLOR="Red"]We all know that it is impossible to do multiple passes in order to weld thicker weldements, so simply making 3 passes with proper weld prep and 0.024” hardwire is just something that should never be considered.
Not on the Lincoln SP135. It's not recommended by Lincoln to make multiple passes using L-56. However, As I tried to point out. If one uses fluxcore (NR211) wire with this machine than multiple passes can be achieved. And as I stated before, only when hooked to a 25 amp branch circuit.



Have a Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
Please explain the popcorn sound heard when mig welding. Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing?
No. In short circuit transfer mode, the wire shorts in the puddle and burns back, and it goes in cycles. The wire burns back faster and further with higher voltage, and feeds back into the puddle faster with higher wire speed. Each "pop" is the wire shorting. The welder is just providing a constant voltage and wire speed.

I think the main issue here is just that you're trying to weld in 1/4" material but you're setup for more like 3/16". You don't have the heat to fully wet a puddle on that material. Find some 1/8" or 3/16" and you should get a more appropriate bead.
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
I wasn't asking for a pissing contest here, but rather to share my experience with this machine. Your comments show that you have little experience with it.
Are you saying that DC+ burns as hot as DC-? Please explain the popcorn sound heard when mig welding. Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing? This is why it requires more amperage to accomplish the same weld as FCAW is capable of!

Not on the Lincoln SP135. It's not recommended by Lincoln to make multiple passes using L-56. However, As I tried to point out. If one uses fluxcore (NR211) wire with this machine than multiple passes can be achieved. And as I stated before, only when hooked to a 25 amp branch circuit.

Have a Merry Christmas!
Let me try and break up the wet leg contest here...

Fluxcore gets more heat because you are BURNING the flux. The burning flux augments the heat provided by the electric arc and gives you mroe penetration.

Electrode negative vs. positive controls where the heat is concentrated.

For flux burning applications (stick welder or flux wire welder for instance) you want electrode positive to keep the electode hot enough to burn the flux. The heat taken away from the work by the electrode is more than replaced by the heat from the flux.

For other aplications like MIG or TIG, you want electrode negative, which keeps the heat concentrated in the work. This is why a TIG welder will generally ruin a tungsten if you use it in Electode Positive mode.

As for the pulsating power, the only thing that should do that is the duty cycle of the machine. I don't know about lincolns, but Millers have "smart" circuitry in them that retards the amperage of the machine as you approach its duty cycle.

As for what will help the original welding problem in this post, my recommendation is reduced wire speed, hold the torch nearly perpendicular to the work with just a little bit of "push," and employ some sort of weave, Loopy-loop, or half moon patern to increase your penetration.

Also, bevel the edges of the part to be welded and make multiple passes.

As a last resort, you can use a MAPP gas torch to preheat the parts to be welded for really thick stuff.
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmt
Given these comments perhaps you should stick to carpentry and not offer welding advice, all they show is a total lack of understanding in the differences in metal transfer modes. As always the transfer mode for both FCAW and GMAW depends on the manufacturer of the wire, wire size, shielding gas (if used), voltage, and current. If you think that the power source in a Lincoln 135 “pulses” the power you are a bigger idiot than many of your past posts on this board have led me to believe.
I don't think your elitist tone was really called for. I think MrWillies was just trying to help. You know, it is possible to be informative without being a cock about it
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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No. In short circuit transfer mode, the wire shorts in the puddle and burns back, and it goes in cycles. The wire burns back faster and further with higher voltage, and feeds back into the puddle faster with higher wire speed. Each "pop" is the wire shorting. The welder is just providing a constant voltage and wire speed.

I think the main issue here is just that you're trying to weld in 1/4" material but you're setup for more like 3/16". You don't have the heat to fully wet a puddle on that material. Find some 1/8" or 3/16" and you should get a more appropriate bead.
I was quoting what the Lincoln Rep. told me when I asked why I couldn't go as thick in mig / vs fluxcore. I do believe I'm correct that it doesn't burn as hot though?
I do like this explaination, but it is a short circuit and the sound heard is each cycle correct!
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:41 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjeep
When you switched from the flux core to the regular wire and gas, did you reverse the polarity on the welder?

For MIG welding (DC+) polarity.
For Flux Core (DC-) polarity.

youve got that backwards
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:43 PM   #23 (permalink)
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youve got that backwards
Not for this machine. He's correct!
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Old 12-25-2005, 04:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
I wasn't asking for a pissing contest here, but rather to share my experience with this machine. Your comments show that you have little experience with it. Are you saying that DC+ burns as hot as DC-? Please explain the popcorn sound heard when mig welding. Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing? This is why it requires more amperage to accomplish the same weld as FCAW is capable of!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
Not on the Lincoln SP135. It's not recommended by Lincoln to make multiple passes using L-56. However, As I tried to point out. If one uses fluxcore (NR211) wire with this machine than multiple passes can be achieved. And as I stated before, only when hooked to a 25 amp branch circuit.
Have a Merry Christmas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep
I don't think your elitist tone was really called for. I think MrWillies was just trying to help. You know, it is possible to be informative without being a cock about it


Because I take issue with someone presenting something as “fact” that is:

1) Completely wrong.
2) Shows a complete lack of understanding of the basic differences betwixt the FCAW and GMAW process, let alone metal transfer types.
3) Have his next post on the topic affirm that he doesn’t know about what he is giving advice on.

If this makes me a cock so be it, because we all know that this board could use some more welding fables.


MrWillys; I will give you the “sort of” short reply rather than continue to threaten to beat the children running around the house with Darth Vader helmets and Light Sabers in their hands:

When you say:

“Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing? This is why it requires more amperage to accomplish the same weld as FCAW is capable of!”

You basic argument comparing differences in energy input between GMAW and FCAW falls apart at the beginning because you are trying to compare two different processes with more than one essential variable being changed when switching process. DC+ and DC- COULD be one of the variables but FCAW filler such as E70T-4 runs DC+ and the Lincoln Innersheild NR-211-MP you bring up is E71T-11 filler which runs DC- and meets the applicable AWS classification chemical composition requirements for multiple pass usage.

GMAW:
As already explained the popcorn/bacon/pulsing sound in GMAW with a 135 machine comes from the type of transfer, short circuit in this case. If you have a larger machine that is capable of a higher voltage and an Argon rich shielding gas you will be able to exceed the transition current and achieve spray transfer which sounds completely different. If you happen to be using a STT machine it sounds different as well as it utilizing waveform shaping to achieve a different mode of metal transfer. The Lincoln SuperArc L-56 you bring up is an ER70S-6 filler which IS suitable for multiple passes.

FCAW:
Unlike GMAW filler which usually only contain alloying elements and deoxidizers, FCAW fillers also contain denitrifiers, slag formers, arc stabilizers and gasifiers. These elements as well as the type of slag deposited (Basic, Acidic and Rutile Basic) determine the weldability of the electrode and the mechanical properties of the weld metal which is similar to how changing the shielding gas in GMAW affects the weldabilty and mechanical properties of the filler. Keep in mind that there are 13+ different types of recognized FCAW flux combinations under AWS 5.20 which covers carbon and low alloy steels.
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Old 12-25-2005, 06:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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And you're still wrong about multiple passes with L-56 on the SP135, and the wire is 400 ipm, not 300 ipm as you claimed. Not to mention that you're wrong on the thinkness of metal this machine is recommended for!
OK, You want to keep score, you're wrong on three items and I missed one!
So I guess, yes you are a cock...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmt
Because I take issue with someone presenting something as “fact” that is:

1) Completely wrong.
2) Shows a complete lack of understanding of the basic differences betwixt the FCAW and GMAW process, let alone metal transfer types.
3) Have his next post on the topic affirm that he doesn’t know about what he is giving advice on.

If this makes me a cock so be it, because we all know that this board could use some more welding fables.


MrWillys; I will give you the “sort of” short reply rather than continue to threaten to beat the children running around the house with Darth Vader helmets and Light Sabers in their hands:

When you say:

“Couldn't one say that this GMAW process could be considered pulsing? This is why it requires more amperage to accomplish the same weld as FCAW is capable of!”

You basic argument comparing differences in energy input between GMAW and FCAW falls apart at the beginning because you are trying to compare two different processes with more than one essential variable being changed when switching process. DC+ and DC- COULD be one of the variables but FCAW filler such as E70T-4 runs DC+ and the Lincoln Innersheild NR-211-MP you bring up is E71T-11 filler which runs DC- and meets the applicable AWS classification chemical composition requirements for multiple pass usage.

GMAW:
As already explained the popcorn/bacon/pulsing sound in GMAW with a 135 machine comes from the type of transfer, short circuit in this case. If you have a larger machine that is capable of a higher voltage and an Argon rich shielding gas you will be able to exceed the transition current and achieve spray transfer which sounds completely different. If you happen to be using a STT machine it sounds different as well as it utilizing waveform shaping to achieve a different mode of metal transfer. The Lincoln SuperArc L-56 you bring up is an ER70S-6 filler which IS suitable for multiple passes.

FCAW:
Unlike GMAW filler which usually only contain alloying elements and deoxidizers, FCAW fillers also contain denitrifiers, slag formers, arc stabilizers and gasifiers. These elements as well as the type of slag deposited (Basic, Acidic and Rutile Basic) determine the weldability of the electrode and the mechanical properties of the weld metal which is similar to how changing the shielding gas in GMAW affects the weldabilty and mechanical properties of the filler. Keep in mind that there are 13+ different types of recognized FCAW flux combinations under AWS 5.20 which covers carbon and low alloy steels.
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