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Old 06-27-2006, 05:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Another 4wd accident....

I did not know the guy, but it happened only a few miles from my house. Good reminder to use good straps and proper attachment points. Oh yeah, and raise your hood too.

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Old 06-27-2006, 06:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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yikes, that sucks. Would love to see the situation... kind of strap, etc...
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Old 06-27-2006, 07:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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yikes, that sucks. Would love to see the situation... kind of strap, etc...
doesnt really matter...

I've had a clevis dent a bumper AND a tailgate on a 6ft strap when the other end broke free from the mount...

strap + clevis + strap= bad...always hook the clevis to something secure...another strap is not secure...

I'd rather slip 2 straps together and not be able to get them apart...than have to dodge a clevis..
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Old 06-27-2006, 07:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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yikes, that sucks. Would love to see the situation... kind of strap, etc...
X2 that sucks. I've seen a cable break and come though the windshield it mist the drivers head by inches and went though the seat right next to his head and out the back window. All because he had no weights on the cable and his hood was not up. He does not do that anymore.
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Old 06-27-2006, 07:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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In order for the strap with a clevis attached to go flying, then either the recovery point on one of the vehicles failed, or they had two straps hooked together with a clevis.
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Old 06-27-2006, 07:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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They had two straps hooked together with the clevis. The driver did not know they hooked them like that or he would'nt have aloud it. He was a GREAT guy and an excellent father. It was his 12th wedding aniversary and the next day was fathers day. He was an active member of Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association and will be greatly missed. RIP.
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear about this situation


the 2 straps hooked togehter with a clevis is not the problem. That is the proper way to attach 2 straps together. Attaching strap to strap (without clevis) actually weakens the connection and raises the chance of failure (and permanently damages both straps). Also, choking the strap around something and using the shackel/clevis to attach back to the strap is perfectly fine. Its called a shackle choke. This is used everyday in steel construction and is a correct method for attaching a strap/choker.

If used properly, the straps and clevis are your best friend. in all of my experiences, 100% of failures with straps I've actually seen have been from poor anchoring or improper rigging. Using damaged equipment can also be detrimental.

The problem is the attachment point to the vehicle.

Find a good secure anchor point to attach any strap/clevis to.

Be smart about it and keep your head out of the way...
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Connecting two straps with a shackle IS the problem. That is how you die. You use rigging straps for lifting which are completly different. They are not made to stretch and "slingshot" a couple of thousand pounds of steel out of the mud. Two straps should be joined by a piece dowel and it will not weaken them at all. You simply cannot have a weight (shackle) in a place that is under extreme tension (stretched pull strap) directly in line with people in vehicles on standing nearby. It's normaly not the vehicle attachment point that fails, its that one of the straps break allowing the shackle to fly.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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???

Rigging straps are made with the same nylon as tow straps...

Except all of my rigging straps (of comparable size to a tow strap) are rated for much higher loads...

If picking up a 150,000 pound structure with nylon rigging isnt putting them to the test, then I don't know what is...

The end force on the strap is the same wether picking up a 40,000 pound structure or pulling a vehicle with a 40,000 pound resistance. Its when someone exceeds that rating (or rating of the attachment point) when things get bad.

Properly rigged and used (within capacity), in steel work or off road, a strap to strap connected with a shackle is the proper way.

Of course thats what injures lots of people. Fine it does. But, you have to look at the way it was attached, condition of the strap, severity of the situation, and the amount of load that is placed on that strap.

You cannot blaim the shackle and say its the culprit when 95% of the time it did not fail. You must look at the reason something failed.

The problem is the failure, and usually its not the shackle/clevis attachment on the strap. It may be the cause of the injury to the individual, but that is secondary because something else failed.

Lets pinpoint the failure first. If we can eliminate improper rigging/use and improper use of damaged straps, etc., then the problem with the shackle coming through the windshild is eliminated...

once again, I'm sorry to hear about Jonathan.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rockcity
???

Rigging straps are made with the same nylon as tow straps...

Except all of my rigging straps (of comparable size to a tow strap) are rated for much higher loads...



once again, I'm sorry to hear about Jonathan.
You need to spend some more time around recovery gear. Recovery straps may be made from the same material, but they are woven differently so they stretch. I have both, rigging slings and recovery straps and to say they are the same because they are both nylon is like saying that poo pipe is the same as 4130 because they both have steel in them.

Rigging slings also have date tags with inspection criteria of which I've never seen or heard of on any recovery gear. Simply put, recovery gear is not even in the same class as rigging gear.

Most rigging slings I've seen are double layered and stitched together with both layers folded into eyes on the ends. Recovery straps are constructed with one layer, loosely woven and the eye is a single layer folded in half and sewn back to the body.

This may not apply 100 percent because I sure I haven't seen every rigging and recovery strap out there. But it does apply to all that I have ever seen in use.

I use my rigging sling for a rock anchor and tow strap only. For recovery where I need to yank on something stuck, I use the stretchy strap. You wouldn't even begin to use one for lifting overhead and I'm pretty sure you won't find one rated for overhead lifting. If you do, I'd like to see it.

Again, do not connect recovery straps together with a clevis. You won't be the first person to die if something goes wrong.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:18 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Lets pinpoint the failure first. If we can eliminate improper rigging/use and improper use of damaged straps, etc., then the problem with the shackle coming through the windshild is eliminated...
straps breaking and coming loose are very common occurances, dont use metal between 2 straps and things will be much safer all around.

heres an illustration:
http://www.4wdonline.com/A/PiCs37/straps2.gif
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Connecting two straps with a shackle IS the problem. That is how you die. You use rigging straps for lifting which are completly different. They are not made to stretch and "slingshot" a couple of thousand pounds of steel out of the mud. Two straps should be joined by a piece dowel and it will not weaken them at all. You simply cannot have a weight (shackle) in a place that is under extreme tension (stretched pull strap) directly in line with people in vehicles on standing nearby. It's normaly not the vehicle attachment point that fails, its that one of the straps break allowing the shackle to fly.
Bruce is correct...The tow style straps are made to stretch. They are made different than your rigging straps. They way they are woven allows the strap to stretch a little which makes them work like a big rubber band. If you have a weight, like a shackle, in the middle of the rubber band and it breaks, all the stored energy (stretched strap) will be released sending the shackle flying. That said, I don't own any tow straps for that reason. I prefer my endless rigging slings.
I'm sorry to about Jonathan. This was a completely avoidable death that a little education could have prevented. At least he went quickly doing what he loved.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If both of your attachment points are strong and smooth (no sharp edges) and your recovery gear is in tip top shape using a clevis is probably safe, but you won't catch me doing it. Professional applications and overhead rigging is a bit different, but mostly just because your gear is regularly inspected and thrown away when it becomes damaged. How many schmoes at the mud bog care about that sort of thing? Some of those fools are using ROPE and stuff that isn't even designed for recovery, often with crappy attachment points. I'd be willing to bed that damaged or improper recovery equiptment is responsible for the majority of deaths. That said, I still don't use a shackle between two snatch ropes!
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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this is a common thing 2 straps and a clevis= death or major damage. one of the straps brake and you have a flying bullet. this was a major loss, he had a wife and 3 kids. dont want this to turn into a battle thread. anyone that has been around wheeling knows dont use 2 straps and a clevis!!! our prayers are with his family.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Anyone have any info on #/ft of typical stretch on these things? be cusrious to know so if you see someone stretching say X/ft you have an idea they are at the strap limit....
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Old 06-27-2006, 11:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Anyone have any info on #/ft of typical stretch on these things? be cusrious to know so if you see someone stretching say X/ft you have an idea they are at the strap limit....
Seeing as how most recovery situations using a snatch strap are dynamic, there will no easily discernible way to measure the amount of stretch while the recovery is in motion. Nor will there be a way to check that both straps have the same amount of stretch.

The best thing to do is stay out of the kill radius, don't use shackles to join straps together, stay on top of your gear's condition and don't use any that shows obvious signs of abuse or damage.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Wtf

Way to turn a thread about a death into a flame war

important topic......just please start a new thread....I will gladly read it and change anything I am doing wrong!!!!


back on topic......R.I.P.

Our thought and prayers are with the family!!!!! is there an address to send cards???
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My point is that when used properly, it shouldn't be a problem. If the strap breaks, then there is another problem that hasn't been addressed (insufficient/damaged strap)...


there is a different problem here other than using a shackle to join 2 straps

straps in poor condition=breaking straps
overloading straps=breaking straps


These are the problems. People use straps that are not up to the task...

OK, you drive your Jeep down the road and your old/worn out steering fails and you hit a car head on, do we try to figure out how to keep from hitting people head on, or do we try to fix the old/worn out steering???
When steering breaks, something is gonna happen. Does that mean we quit driving all together???

Actually fix the problem and everything else will fall in line, shackle or no shackle.

Yes there is a danger with them in yanking people out of a situation (because people have poor recovery equipment), but with tip top straps (should be checked every trip and before/after every recovery), you should be fine. My equipment is in tip top shape. I check it every time I use it and before I use it, its just habit. I won't do it with someone else's equipment, but I do with my own.

Why not focus on NOT using damaged/old/worn/rotten straps/rope. This seems to be the culprit for most strap failure, which in turn causes damage or injury


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Old 06-27-2006, 12:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannoncrawler
Way to turn a thread about a death into a flame war

important topic......just please start a new thread....I will gladly read it and change anything I am doing wrong!!!!


back on topic......R.I.P.

Our thought and prayers are with the family!!!!! is there an address to send cards???

This is not a flame war thread. More educational than anything

Lets use this event as an example of something that could happen if proper maintenance and rigging is not followed. However, we do not know how bad off the rigging was or if it was previously damaged (or the exact situation)

For everyone who uses old damaged rigging, please cut it up and throw it away. If you use insufficient rigging, do not put a shackle in the middle of 2 straps.

Rigging is very important and should be checked prior to every trip. Replace when necessary and keep the rigging clean and dry when possible. When strapping 2 straps together for distance, the breaking strength remains the same as the weakest strap, with added distance a vehicle can travel to yank someone out. Take this into consideration. Use a winch when possible.

RIP Jonathan



thats all.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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My condolences to the family. I am sorry to hear about the loss. If there is anything the online 4x4 community can do, please let us know.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Not to get too far off track here, my condolences to the family. This is an all to familiar story in our sport. Seems someone is killed during a recovery every year or so.

Rockcity, do you perform load calculations for each recovery to ensure that your recovery gear is up to the task? Do you weigh the stuck vehicle?

Most likely not, so you have no idea what your margin of safety is with the gear you are using. That being said, using a shackle is just a bad idea, too many variables.

A shackle in the following situations could very well have ended with another story of a wheeler passing.




Your not honestly trying to say that we should all be ok with a brand new 30K strap, 10K rated factory recovery points and using a rated shackle to join two straps are you? Technically we should be, since the vehicle being recovered weighs less than 4K lbs, but shit happens that you cant account for. Minimize risk by not attaching a weight to the middle of essentially a rubber band.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:48 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My point is that when used properly, it shouldn't be a problem. If the strap breaks, then there is another problem that hasn't been addressed (insufficient/damaged strap)...


there is a different problem here other than using a shackle to join 2 straps

straps in poor condition=breaking straps
overloading straps=breaking straps


These are the problems. People use straps that are not up to the task...

OK, you drive your Jeep down the road and your old/worn out steering fails and you hit a car head on, do we try to figure out how to keep from hitting people head on, or do we try to fix the old/worn out steering???
When steering breaks, something is gonna happen. Does that mean we quit driving all together???

Actually fix the problem and everything else will fall in line, shackle or no shackle.

Yes there is a danger with them in yanking people out of a situation (because people have poor recovery equipment), but with tip top straps (should be checked every trip and before/after every recovery), you should be fine. My equipment is in tip top shape. I check it every time I use it and before I use it, its just habit. I won't do it with someone else's equipment, but I do with my own.

Why not focus on NOT using damaged/old/worn/rotten straps/rope. This seems to be the culprit for most strap failure, which in turn causes damage or injury


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Not flaming, but you have to be realistic. I work in the entertainment industry and have been rigging my whole career, and nothing I have rigged has ever broken or fallen. Why? Because I have access to the best equipment and if I have any doubts if that the 5/8" shackle I'm using is not strong enough, I go and get a 3/4" shackle. It's a proceedure that has served me well.

The problem on the trail is people that have 2" Canyon Crawler straps, and they're cut, or old or just too weak to pull out a 6000lb vehicle that is stuck behind a rock, or in mud. Or people that are using 5/16" wire rope, (10,900 burst strength), on a big vehicle and shock loading it. That's reality, so that's why I won't use two straps shackled to each other in most situations. Sure, if we could get everybody to carry 6" straps and make sure they're recovery points are sound, then we could eliminate these scenario's, but that's going to take time and you're never going to eliminate stupidity altogether.

I have 3/8" Synthetic rope on my Warn HS9500, and feel WAY more comfortable about it now. No, it's not the fault of the shackle, but it's like the old mantra, "Grenades don't kill people...it's the shrapnel that does it!"
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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All the pictures you show are of attachment point failures. If these are only rated at 10K #, then you must use your common sense when recovering and know not to use them when a substantial force is applied...

I do not weigh each vehicle and the force it will take to remove it. I do however, use common sense when recovery is required. I don't use a huge vehicle with multiple straps lashed together and get a 30-40 foot full speed running start to pull someone out. Thats obsured. With 2 or more straps together, its easy to get that kind of distance if a 20 foot strap is not enough running room. You must take into consideration all aspects of the recovery, condition of the strap, attachment point, force behind recovery, amount of pull exerted by the towing vehicle, etc. etc.

Accidents only happen when someone is negligent, in some form or another...

Once again, lets use this as an educational experience and actually find a good/proper way to do things...

Rob
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Old 06-27-2006, 01:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Doc
Not flaming, but you have to be realistic. I work in the entertainment industry and have been rigging my whole career, and nothing I have rigged has ever broken or fallen. Why? Because I have access to the best equipment and if I have any doubts if that the 5/8" shackle I'm using is not strong enough, I go and get a 3/4" shackle. It's a proceedure that has served me well.

The problem on the trail is people that have 2" Canyon Crawler straps, and they're cut, or old or just too weak to pull out a 6000lb vehicle that is stuck behind a rock, or in mud. Or people that are using 5/16" wire rope, (10,900 burst strength), on a big vehicle and shock loading it. That's reality, so that's why I won't use two straps shackled to each other in most situations. Sure, if we could get everybody to carry 6" straps and make sure they're recovery points are sound, then we could eliminate these scenario's, but that's going to take time and you're never going to eliminate stupidity altogether.

I have 3/8" Synthetic rope on my Warn HS9500, and feel WAY more comfortable about it now. No, it's not the fault of the shackle, but it's like the old mantra, "Grenades don't kill people...it's the shrapnel that does it!"

well said.

Once again, I've been in rigging for a while now and have only had 1 strap fail, due to overload of a damaged strap. I won't make that mistake again...

All straps should be clean, dry, and damage free. Period. If someone can afford to wheel then they can afford a decent strap/recovery equipment. It can save everyone's life.

Things happen. They do. But you gotta eliminate it from the beginning. We should actually try to fix the problem instead of "band-aiding" it.

If ya got shitty straps, stay away from me.


Rob
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rockcity is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2006, 01:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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I am sorry that happened.

However, it doesn't need to be metal to hurt or kill. I had a strap break, come back and nearly go through my radiator....I couldn't imagine if there had been someone standing there.
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