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Old 08-13-2006, 02:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Front Dana 60, weld, spool or locker?

I'm ready to install the axles out of a 1.25TON CUCV, Dana 60 and 14 bolt on my CJ7.
What will work better in the D60, welding, spool, or full locker?
How does the spool works?
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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spool will work just like welding it. if you are going full hydro steering i would weld it. if not i would do an arb or detroit.
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Welding is cheap
Spool is strong and light
ARB is amazing when working
Detroit always works
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggin
spool will work just like welding it. if you are going full hydro steering i would weld it. if not i would do an arb or detroit.
I'm going to use the steering out of a backhoe, fully hydraulic.
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Old 08-13-2006, 03:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Even with hydrolic a spool/welded front end will not turn as tight as an open/arb(open)/detroit front end.

I would never weld/spool a front end after driving one.

I would put an ARB up there and have on boht my rigs... both 60s, both ARBs they work great
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Old 08-14-2006, 12:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I would say put a Detroit in it. My rig had a spool up front and it was hard to turn, it has a Detroit now and is much better.
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Old 08-14-2006, 12:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I have a lockright in mine and it works fine. Obviously it doesn't turn like open, if you want that you'll need to go selectable.
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Old 08-14-2006, 01:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I have Dana 60's ft & rear. I use a spool in the rear & Detroit Locker in the Front. Both diff's are steering with hydro.... The Detroit works great in the front, but the rear with the spool is difficult to turn if in a bind (ie.. rocks) If I were to do it over again I would use the ARB front and rear....my 2 cents
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Old 08-14-2006, 02:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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A spooled or welded front end sucks. not only does it get very difficult to turn, even with assist, but the understeer is horendus. I welded my front 60 when my lockright went out and it was impossible to turn. The tires steered just fine, but 99% of the time they still plowed more or less straight ahead. Another thing people fail to realize when spooling or welding a front axle, is that the axle shaft steering joints have to be in the same plane or they will constantly bind when steering. This is probably why most people experience very difficult steering (as in actually turning the wheels). It doesn't really matter though how well the wheels turn, as the understeer makes it pretty much not worth doing. I went detroit, and have never looked back. ARB would be the best case scenario though, as under power the detroit still likes to lock up in a turn.

Later,
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Old 08-14-2006, 03:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wicked_S10
Another thing people fail to realize when spooling or welding a front axle, is that the axle shaft steering joints have to be in the same plane or they will constantly bind when steering. This is probably why most people experience very difficult steering (as in actually turning the wheels).
that makes no sense whatsoever. are you saying you also need to phase your shafts before turning your arb on? or some how make the detroit engage only when your shafts are in sync?? must be hard to turn with an open front diff also since there not gonna be lined up. the u joints dont care what the other one is doing


I have a welded front. I dont recomend it but the price is right
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Old 08-14-2006, 03:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i think the arguement over welded or not welded is not that cut and dry. there are factors that make both the right choice.

-is the terrain where you live and ride tight?, and what's you wheelbase?
-is it a dd or trail rig? and does it have locking hubs?
-are you planning on beating it hard enough to need it locked, or are you gonna do alot of trail riding?
-are you broke? or well off? that would decide alot right there.

also, welded or spooled is absolute. it works or it broken....badly. there are no parts to gernade, leak air, jam, bind, grind or wear.

i personally am broke and beat the shit out of mine. i run full hydro and im welded front and rear. yeah, i make 4 point turns in the woods, so what.
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Old 08-14-2006, 04:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshfj40
that makes no sense whatsoever. are you saying you also need to phase your shafts before turning your arb on? or some how make the detroit engage only when your shafts are in sync?? must be hard to turn with an open front diff also since there not gonna be lined up. the u joints dont care what the other one is doing
It makes alot of sense when you consider the ellipsoidal velocities of the joints. Surely you've felt, when under hard lock on slickrock, your locked front axle doing that "lurching" thing.

It's like, when you're putting inners into a welded steering axle, why NOT phase them correctly? Why doom yourself to an axle that will NEVER have constant velocities at the wheel?

It takes 3 more minutes of work to mark the shafts and get everything dialled so that you phase the joints, and your junk won't be fighting itself every time you turn the wheel.

Cheers
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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True, both an ARB and Detroit will do it sometimes, depending on where the shafts are when they engage, but a welded steering axle with the joints out of phase will always be out of phase. Some of the movement it causes will be taken up by the shaft moving in the spiders and hub, but sometimes it will make the steering feel incredibly stiff, or cause hard side to side tire wobble as mentioned above. Anyhow, as for an open diff, that is a totaly different story, since the shafts are not locked together in the center and can turn at completely different speeds, then it really doesn't matter what each individual ujoint is doing.

Good luck,
Jason
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I've finally been out playing with my newly welded front 60 in my Jeep TJ.

I don't like it at all. My trails are often tight. And while I can turn the steering wheel fine and the tires point where I want to go, the Jeep just pushes straight ahead still. Any kind of slow turn is impossible. If you can get on the throttle a little it turns ok, but sometimes that's a scary idea.

I'm putting a line lock on the rear brakes so I can do front burns. Then I should be able to swing the front around on the spot, more or less.

Not that I'm cheap, just that I'm broke. Can't afford a Detroit let alone an ARB.

The traction is great though. First time I've ever been locked in the front. Love it for that.
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Old 08-14-2006, 10:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Both these axles are full size, 4.56 gears D60 and 14blt with "factory" locker (both came out of a military edition chevy truck) are going into a CJ7, so wheelbase is an issue.
First choice of welding and/or spool was due only to economy, but I'm not going to sacrifice handling on the trail as I pretend to go with 39.5 as my smallest choice of tires.
ARB are out of the question not only because of the price, but for the maintenance. The ones I've seen down here are functional 50% of the time, have had the same problem with the Electrac.
That leaves the full time locker, and I guess the Detroit is the best option.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trango
It makes alot of sense when you consider the ellipsoidal velocities of the joints. Surely you've felt, when under hard lock on slickrock, your locked front axle doing that "lurching" thing.

It's like, when you're putting inners into a welded steering axle, why NOT phase them correctly? Why doom yourself to an axle that will NEVER have constant velocities at the wheel?

It takes 3 more minutes of work to mark the shafts and get everything dialled so that you phase the joints, and your junk won't be fighting itself every time you turn the wheel.

Cheers
Bob
The cancellation of the joints center leaving centerline is only achieved if there are two joints on the shaft. An axleshaft with just one joint on it has no clue what the other side axleshaft is doing if it is lined up or not. This phasing is only important with the passenger side of a TTB Ford or similar setup with multiple joints on the same side. Two joints on one shaft in phase are designed to keep the at least the middle of the shaft on centerline.

Anyway, if you put that much thought into your front end, how could your other theories allow you to go spool?
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Detroit or if you have a bit more cash then the ARB, nothing like being able to turn the locker off when you need to make a tight turn......
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mh4Runner
The cancellation of the joints center leaving centerline is only achieved if there are two joints on the shaft. An axleshaft with just one joint on it has no clue what the other side axleshaft is doing if it is lined up or not.
When you run a spool/welded both front shafts are basicaly the same shaft since they are solidly hooked together....so you have 2 u-joints...one on the left side and one on the right side.
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:58 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Just one other note.......

I have a spool in the front and full hydro steering - don't even notice the spool as far as the steering wheel - but a full day of wheeling - lots of turning - you PS fluid will boil over - it is a lot extra work for the pump to turn a locked axle always. I have a e-locker ready to go in - just haven't done it yet......
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Lock the right front hub in. Leave the left front unlocked. Hop out and lock in the left one when needed. If your cheap, you can't be lazy.
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:54 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mh4Runner
The cancellation of the joints center leaving centerline is only achieved if there are two joints on the shaft....<snip>
It isn't about cancelling out the variation in this case. The stub shafts _always_ speed up and slow down around the angular velocity of the inner shafts whenever the wheels are turned anything but straight ahead. The point the other guy is making is that if you match the joint phases side for side, then _both_ front wheels will speed up and slow down at the same time, so they won't be fighting against each other on top of all the other load they are enduring. This results in there being more capacity available for transfering forward inducing motion to the wheels before things break.

With a differential, you can never line them up, because the phase is changing all the time - they won't stay in phase with each other. If you are going to lock them together _permanantly_, you may as well align them because they will then stay where you put them, see?
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DRKelly
Lock the right front hub in. Leave the left front unlocked. Hop out and lock in the left one when needed. If your cheap, you can't be lazy.
to steal from Jeff Foxworthy: If your selectable locker is a welded front end with warn lockouts... you might be a redneck.

course - that's what I'm doing
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by TheMucker
to steal from Jeff Foxworthy: If your selectable locker is a welded front end with warn lockouts... you might be a redneck.
course - that's what I'm doing
If it is welded in the front...
What happens with the locks?
How do they work?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:05 PM   #24 (permalink)
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No question - selectable lockers are AWESOME up front. I run an ARB personally in my 60.
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:53 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bindernut
It isn't about cancelling out the variation in this case. The stub shafts _always_ speed up and slow down around the angular velocity of the inner shafts whenever the wheels are turned anything but straight ahead. The point the other guy is making is that if you match the joint phases side for side, then _both_ front wheels will speed up and slow down at the same time, so they won't be fighting against each other on top of all the other load they are enduring. This results in there being more capacity available for transfering forward inducing motion to the wheels before things break.

With a differential, you can never line them up, because the phase is changing all the time - they won't stay in phase with each other. If you are going to lock them together _permanantly_, you may as well align them because they will then stay where you put them, see?
Ok, more fuel for the fire.....
What about Ackerman? One tire turning more than the other..... Will that cause unmatched angles and therefore bind as well?
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