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Old 12-21-2006, 10:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Mounting swaybars to control arms???

What formula would I use to find the swaybar resistance required if the mounting points are to be partway up the lower control arms instead of on the axle itself?

Half way up the arm=Double the rate swaybar?

Off the top of my head I'd expect something like this due to the arm acting as a lever on the swaybar when the axle articulates.


Asking for a couple reasons. The mounting will be good for my application. And most of all because I already have a bunch of torsion bar swaybars but all are stiffer than what I think I should be using. (1 inch OD-.75" ID 32" long)

I'm wanting to find out how far up the arms to mount the links to make them work like a .70 or .75 solid bar would, assuming equal length torsion bars and arms.


They would be going front and rear of my TJ

42's
beadlocks
60's front and rear
4 link rear
3 link with panhard front
Coilovers all 4 corners


Lots of body roll right now
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Old 12-22-2006, 01:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Bump... I'm interested as well
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Old 12-22-2006, 07:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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What formula would I use to find the swaybar resistance required if the mounting points are to be partway up the lower control arms instead of on the axle itself?

Half way up the arm=Double the rate swaybar?

No, no, no.. We just hit on this concept recently in the solid vs hollow swaybar thread, coilover mounts angled thread, and the coilover tech thread..

I assume you already know how to find the rate of your swaybar itself using it's diameter, wall thickness, material, length, and arm length, right? Just a long funny equation..

Once you mount in on your control arms you need to equate it to a motion ratio... IE how much displacement the swaybar arm sees for one inch of wheel travel.. This changes throughout the range of your suspension travel so just ballpark it and make sure it's setup so there are no drastic changes.. Once you have a ratio square it and multiply it by your swaybar rate. That's now your rollbar's stiffness as it effects the wheel..

So if you mount your rollbar links halfway up your control arm it's pretty much going to make it work as if it was a quarter as stiff..

rollbar rate at the wheel = rollbar rate * (MR^2)


That's how it works.
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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so would this equasion be affected if you were to mount the sway bar to the axle, and then run the links to the control arm? i posted this on RDC a while back and seems to work allright on the high speed pre-runners and some TTs.. the reason i ask is that it would free up alot of space on a full body jeep framerail and allow you to counter sink the winch between the frame rails and not have to deal with links and bars through or around the frame rails once the crossmember has been cut out of the way.

Thanks,
Thean
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Old 12-22-2006, 08:48 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for the reply.

Sorry guys. For some reason I wasn't getting notifications from my other thread.

Good info here on this idea.....
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503885
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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so would this equasion be affected if you were to mount the sway bar to the axle, and then run the links to the control arm? i posted this on RDC a while back and seems to work allright on the high speed pre-runners and some TTs.. the reason i ask is that it would free up alot of space on a full body jeep framerail and allow you to counter sink the winch between the frame rails and not have to deal with links and bars through or around the frame rails once the crossmember has been cut out of the way.

Thanks,
Thean
That's interesting.. but.. as I'm thinking about it the equation is still right, but it'd be a little different figuring the motion ratio. I think I understand what you're saying, but do you have a good picture of the setup handy?? I don't remember seeing pictures of it on any TT or anything.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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What number are you calculating for? Have you done this before and know what resistance you are after? I'm guessing not. The best thing is trial and error for your specific rig. I mount my sway bar links to my lower control arms with a collar like this http://www.mad4wd.com/tek9.asp?pg=pr...cific=jrgrkme0
Then you can move the collar up and down the control arm to dial it in just like you want it. You can also use different holes in the sway bar arm.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:55 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Doesnt The Twister Have The Sway Bars Hooked To The Links? Search For His Build Up On Here, Or Look At Whiteknight.ca That Might Help Too, Good Luck.
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I mount my sway bar links to my lower control arms with a collar like this http://www.mad4wd.com/tek9.asp?pg=pr...cific=jrgrkme0
Then you can move the collar up and down the control arm to dial it in just like you want it.


I really like this idea

Last edited by Brink_; 12-22-2006 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Doesnt The Twister Have The Sway Bars Hooked To The Links?


He does. But what I remember reading about Clayton's setup is less tech and more just a feel thing for him. It's not as helpful to someone like me who is looking to acheive a known spring rate.
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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That collar rocks. I could also use it as a cock ring when I COME over to stay.

Last edited by project_mud; 12-22-2006 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 04:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Check out the evolution buggy build thread. The one of the huge monster truck "buggy". Or you could call/PM them to discuss how they did it. I'd look it up and link it but I'm leaving for work as I type this. Good luck
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Old 12-22-2006, 05:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Check out the evolution buggy build thread. The one of the huge monster truck "buggy". Or you could call/PM them to discuss how they did it. I'd look it up and link it but I'm leaving for work as I type this. Good luck
That would be Twister as discussed already.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
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does this pic work...
http://www.race-dezert.com/skunkz/geiser_baldwin/14.jpg

edit: heres the link to the disscussion:

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22582

a few pics their
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Last edited by crusty1007; 12-22-2006 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Old 12-23-2006, 08:42 AM   #16 (permalink)
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That's sure a cool way to mount it. It would simplify several things for me.

I'm gonna get a headache trying to figure out relativity rates compared to an Antirock today I can tell.
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Old 12-23-2006, 09:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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rollbar rate at the wheel = rollbar rate * (MR^2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty1007 View Post
so would this equasion be affected if you were to mount the sway bar to the axle, and then run the links to the control arm? i posted this on RDC a while back and seems to work allright on the high speed pre-runners and some TTs.. the reason i ask is that it would free up alot of space on a full body jeep framerail and allow you to counter sink the winch between the frame rails and not have to deal with links and bars through or around the frame rails once the crossmember has been cut out of the way.

Thanks,
Thean
Looking at the pics from Nordic, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Yes the equation will still work the same. However, now figuring the installation ratio is the difficult part. Once you've got the ratio and know how it changes throughout the travel you can figure everything else pretty much like usual.
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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i figured it would be a headache of a math equasion.

i would like to try it, just wish there was a "simpler " way to figure out the rate & link arm length.

it would definatelymake more room on a full body.
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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i figured it would be a headache of a math equasion.

i would like to try it, just wish there was a "simpler " way to figure out the rate & link arm length.

it would definatelymake more room on a full body.
I agree it is a decent idea for packaging. The math problem isn't too bad but some modeling would really help.. You could get easily get close to ball parking this and leave room for tuning/changing.. Don't be afraid to go for it.
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Old 12-23-2006, 04:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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im gonna go for it, once i get the full widths under it.
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Back to the top....

Benny I need your help to ballpark this way of mounting. All that work to wrap my head around the motion ratio figuring base on control arm/frame mounts and I'm not finding the room for it there......

Thinking maybe this way instead.....but don't follow where to start with the motion ratio.

Had to reread the other thread we had just to understand how I came up with the other numbers last time.

Last edited by Brink_; 03-29-2007 at 08:43 PM.
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