Can you comment on my ideas to redo my links? (with pics) - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2007, 11:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Can you comment on my ideas to redo my links? (with pics)

Note: I didn't build my rig and don't meant to put down the builder. He's a friend of mine and I'm *sure* if I built something I'd find room for improvement later on too.

This is the best semi-recent picture of my rig that I could find. (That's my daughter helping me bleed the brakes.) You can see the front and rear lower control arm hangers and imagine how they get hung up on things from time to time. In the rear, I've figured out how to make them longer, move them in and up, and still having good anti-squat characteristics. In the front I could use the forum's opinion.

Current picture:


Proposed change:
The goal is to stretch the wheelbase about 2 1/2" to 106.5". In addition to more wheelbase I'll be able to lower the rig about 2-3" because the upper control arms will then clear the oil pan. (Unrelated: I'll also move the upper air shock mount to go from 3" to 5" of up travel.) Due to clearance issues I can't move my lower control arms just anywhere I want them. I haven't run the numbers but visualizing the instant center and the anti-squat line tells me it will be somewhere around 150%.



It will look a be a better with the rig sitting lower and it will be a joy not to grind that hanger all the time but what do you guys think? Would you take a flatter bottom over front link geometry? I'm under the impression that the front doesn't matter as much because of 1) The winch can control it to some extent 2) Anti-squat only comes into play when you have traction and if things are rough the front tends to be somewhat light anyway.

Thoughts?
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2007, 04:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Hmm, this fell off the front page. I'll give it a bump and see if I get any feedback, otherwise I'll just go for it and make it as long and parallel as I can while getting it to fit.
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 11-12-2007, 05:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Member # 1636
Location: East Rutherford NJ
Posts: 8,899
Mabye weld some plate along the bottom of the bracket to make kind of a ramp to the frame and skin it with light UHMV?
chris demartini is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2007, 12:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Eskimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Member # 10429
Location: Danville, PA
Posts: 4,747
If you lower it 2-3" then the whole belly will hit on things only the hangars hit before... food for thought.

150% is crazy high.. ya sure about that #?

I've hit and drug the front hangars on a bunch of things but it's never held me up.. the rear I could see being a totally different story, however.

You just need bigger tires...
__________________
FJ-40 Cruggy - tuned 5.3/4WS rockwells/linked/ORI's/42's - Sold.
Eskimo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 12:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Member # 7876
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 5,261
Send a message via AIM to Arya Ebrahimi
Pardon the irrelevant question, but whose rig did that used to be? It looks extremely familiar.
__________________
Hoarder of Land Cruisers, wheeler of none.
Arya Ebrahimi is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 12:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
If you lower it 2-3" then the whole belly will hit on things only the hangars hit before... food for thought.

150% is crazy high.. ya sure about that #?

I've hit and drug the front hangars on a bunch of things but it's never held me up.. the rear I could see being a totally different story, however.

You just need bigger tires...
You're right about the belly hitting and the bigger tires. Then end goal is to get 40" comp tires but that will have to wait. As for being sure about the numbers, no I'm not sure. It's just sort of an "electronic back of the envelope calculation". I'm having a hard time measuring it when I'm looking to change pretty much everything (wheelbase, control arm length, chassis height, mount locations, etc.).

Here's a picture that shows some of the relevant points. (Yeah baby, envy my awesome MSPaint skills ) I see it as about 200% AS if I didn't lower it and so maybe 150% after I do?

My real question was how important are AS numbers in the front? I'm thinking it's not very important because AS only has an impact when you're have a lot of traction and torque and that's less common for the front end.


Furthermore, I looked at Chris's rig because I know he does a lot of extreme stuff and takes the time to dial it in. If you draw the same imaginary 100% AS line through the instant center I think you'll get a really big AS% (200%) for his front links too.
His pic:

My "back of the napkin image":


So at least one person seems to think that getting the control arms out of the way is more important than AS in the front suspension.
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by vanguard_anon; 11-13-2007 at 12:37 PM.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 12:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Ebrahimi View Post
Pardon the irrelevant question, but whose rig did that used to be? It looks extremely familiar.
It was Dave's (35xj). His current rig is "round 4".
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by vanguard_anon; 11-13-2007 at 12:45 PM.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
BFJ
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Member # 96629
Posts: 120
Make sure you have enough separation at the axle and punch the rest into the 4 link calculator.

In my experence you should keep the front under 150% and rear under 100% You can always lengthen, bend and gusset the uppers/lowers.

have you considered a 3 link front or a parrallel 4 link with panhard? Both would eliminate oil pan issues.


http://mysite.verizon.net/triaged/fi...kV1.0bBETA.zip

if you don't have excel you can search and find a html version.
BFJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
vetteboy79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member # 31621
Location: Morganville, NJ
Posts: 11,162
Send a message via AIM to vetteboy79
My front 3-link is at 60%ish and I love the crap out of it. There's nothing I'd change; it doesn't unload, hop, dive, etc.

Although, all the design work in the world won't help if you're stuck on a rock magnet. So there are compromises to be made. I would get the AS as low as you can without making too much of a mess of the undercarriage.

edit: Here's the layout so you can get an idea of the angles my links sit at to get those numbers:

__________________
The Alternative Rocker - Taurus SHO V6-powered, Explorer-framed, TTB-front, RCV'd, YJ-bodied east coast racer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Flying Pig Racing #512

Last edited by vetteboy79; 11-13-2007 at 01:13 PM.
vetteboy79 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteboy79 View Post
My front 3-link is at 60%ish and I love the crap out of it.
Loving the crap out of something is creating visual images that I'm having a hard time living with.

But now that you say that I think a three link might simplify my crowding issues. I'm going to give that some serious thought while standing in front of my rig. If I had a nickel for every great idea that fizzled after I thought it through while standing next to the buggy I'd be worth at least $1 more by now.

I don't remember it exactly but isn't there some problem with 3 linking a steering axle? What is the counter argument? Is it relevant to trail rigs?
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by vanguard_anon; 11-13-2007 at 01:26 PM.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguard_anon View Post
LI don't remember it exactly but isn't there some problem with 3 linking a steering axle? What is the counter argument? Is it relevant to trail rigs?
Hmm, this guy is doing it. He seems to know a thing or two about off roading.
https://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=629069
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:33 PM   #12 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BFJ View Post
Make sure you have enough separation at the axle and punch the rest into the 4 link calculator.
What would you say is a good guideline? 7 or 8"?
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
vetteboy79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member # 31621
Location: Morganville, NJ
Posts: 11,162
Send a message via AIM to vetteboy79
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguard_anon View Post
I don't remember it exactly but isn't there some problem with 3 linking a steering axle? What is the counter argument? Is it relevant to trail rigs?
Well, there's a panhard. With full hydro steering it's a non-issue; with mechanical steering you need the drag link to match the panhard.



Panhards are really not as evil as some people make them out to be. There are a lot of advantages to running a setup like that - packaging and adjustability are two that come to mind. It doesn't inhibit flex at all.
__________________
The Alternative Rocker - Taurus SHO V6-powered, Explorer-framed, TTB-front, RCV'd, YJ-bodied east coast racer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Flying Pig Racing #512
vetteboy79 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 01:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Member # 3550
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 6,217
I plugged my front end numbers into the 4 link calculator a while back, I'll check at home and see if I have the spreadsheet still. From what I have seen the front suspension is no where near as critical as the rear since you can winch it down for the big climbs which flattens the link angles.

On your link mounts, I'd definately try to tuck the rear ones up and out of the way. The fronts may not be worth it, mine hang down pretty low but they haven't really been an issue.

Edit - that pic of my rig is deceiving, there is a lot more vertical separation at the chassis end than what the sketch shows. I'd guess 7" at the chassis and around 6" at the axle.
__________________
Chassis Plans for the Do-It-Yourselfer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Azrckcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Member # 7876
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 5,261
Send a message via AIM to Arya Ebrahimi
Quote:
My "back of the napkin image":
It looks to me like you drew the "upper" line on the passenger side lower. Maybe not, but it looks like the true upper is flatter and above the highlighted "upper". No?
__________________
Hoarder of Land Cruisers, wheeler of none.
Arya Ebrahimi is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2007, 02:21 PM   #16 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Ebrahimi View Post
It looks to me like you drew the "upper" line on the passenger side lower. Maybe not, but it looks like the true upper is flatter and above the highlighted "upper". No?
I think you're right. Here's a second try at it but it's pretty close to the first. Chris makes a good point about the winch line. That trumps AS and I use mine all the time.

__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 05:25 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Eskimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Member # 10429
Location: Danville, PA
Posts: 4,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrckcrawler View Post
Edit - that pic of my rig is deceiving, there is a lot more vertical separation at the chassis end than what the sketch shows. I'd guess 7" at the chassis and around 6" at the axle.
Which gives a really low anti-dive #. I've got 7-3/4" at the axle and 6-3/4" at the frame, and it's at 25%. Haven't had to use the winch cable much at all so far. The front tires climb right up the rocks without extending the suspension first. The front probably isn't as important as the rear, but it matters.. there's been a few threads about it semi-recently, and it's part of what prompted me to shoot for a low AD % in the front.

Sounds like you already made up your mind on what you want to do and that getting the link brackets off the bottom of the frame is most important to you. if you raise up the lowers without raising the uppers, you're gonna gain a bunch of AS/AD. Can you move the uppers as well?
__________________
FJ-40 Cruggy - tuned 5.3/4WS rockwells/linked/ORI's/42's - Sold.

Last edited by Eskimo; 11-14-2007 at 05:35 AM.
Eskimo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 05:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
if you raise up the lowers without raising the uppers, you're gonna gain a bunch of AS/AD. Can you move the uppers as well?
Yes I can and I will. I was playing around with photos and possible link locations last night and I started thinking that I could do it fairly parallel and it would even be reasonably flat after I lowered the chassis. However, sometimes these plans fall apart when I'm actually standing in front of the rig. I'll take another look today.
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 06:40 AM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Member # 3550
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 6,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
Which gives a really low anti-dive #. I've got 7-3/4" at the axle and 6-3/4" at the frame, and it's at 25%. Haven't had to use the winch cable much at all so far. The front tires climb right up the rocks without extending the suspension first. The front probably isn't as important as the rear, but it matters.. there's been a few threads about it semi-recently, and it's part of what prompted me to shoot for a low AD % in the front.
I agree, if possible make it so you don't have to use the front winch for climbs as sometimes the extra wheel travel is what it takes to crest an obstacle. The big problem comes in fitting the ideal, front end clearances come down to 1/16 of an inch in many cases Because of that I have seen all sorts of wacky front end designs, heck, Barry''s links almost cross at the chassis and he does great on climbs........
__________________
Chassis Plans for the Do-It-Yourselfer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Azrckcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 06:49 AM   #20 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrckcrawler View Post
I agree, if possible make it so you don't have to use the front winch for climbs
I'm hijacking my own thread here but I just don't see how that's possible. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

If you're on a really steep climb (near roll over) then the front end is going to be light, there is no avoiding that. So the shocks are going to extend to their full length regardless of how the links are setup. The AS/AD geometry really comes into play when you have traction (which requires weight) and torque. The only way to avoid using the winch during steep climbs is to limit your down travel.

Does that sound right to you guys? Where did I go wrong?
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 06:54 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Eskimo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Member # 10429
Location: Danville, PA
Posts: 4,747
As I understand it, you're correct, but only on something where you're carrying your front tires completely in the air.
If they're on the ground at all, they're helping you, and having a better suspension setup that isn't trying to lift the nose of the rig can only help...
__________________
FJ-40 Cruggy - tuned 5.3/4WS rockwells/linked/ORI's/42's - Sold.
Eskimo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 07:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
vetteboy79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member # 31621
Location: Morganville, NJ
Posts: 11,162
Send a message via AIM to vetteboy79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
As I understand it, you're correct, but only on something where you're carrying your front tires completely in the air.
If they're on the ground at all, they're helping you, and having a better suspension setup that isn't trying to lift the nose of the rig can only help...
Yep...I've been extremely happy with how little unloading my front end experiences in climbing.





(yes, I know the trees are sideways...)

Keep in mind that AS/AD% is directly related to weight transfer. All the AS% numbers from the calculator are computed the same way it's been done for drag cars, which is straight-line, level ground. Acceleration produces a weight transfer to the rear, and the amount of weight transfer that goes through the links vs. the springs is basically your AS%. Lower numbers mean the springs resist the transfer, higher numbers mean the links resist the transfer. 100% AS is when the line of the CG goes directly to the tire contact patch so the springs don't see any of it.

When we climb stuff, those numbers go out the window. I've got no idea what my numbers are on anything except level ground. But we've basically gotten enough data here that we can say "something with an AD% of x will generally do _______ when climbing", so it's still a measurement we can use to compare similar rigs on similar terrain.
__________________
The Alternative Rocker - Taurus SHO V6-powered, Explorer-framed, TTB-front, RCV'd, YJ-bodied east coast racer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Flying Pig Racing #512
vetteboy79 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 07:28 AM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Member # 3550
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 6,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguard_anon View Post
I'm hijacking my own thread here but I just don't see how that's possible. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

If you're on a really steep climb (near roll over) then the front end is going to be light, there is no avoiding that. So the shocks are going to extend to their full length regardless of how the links are setup. The AS/AD geometry really comes into play when you have traction (which requires weight) and torque. The only way to avoid using the winch during steep climbs is to limit your down travel.

Does that sound right to you guys? Where did I go wrong?
Not every climb is the same. The ones you can get your tires to the top of are places where winching down the front end may hurt more than it helps (you kill breakover angles). In some cases sucking the front end down is really only for driver comfort, dropping the nose a few degrees is a big confidence booster on the big falls. I think of the suck down winch as just another tool to use like front and rear burns, you have to know your rig to know when to use it. The last fall on Annihilator is a great example, I suck the front end down to start because the line you have to take puts you way off camber. Then as the front tires crest the fall I have to let the winch out which gives me more belly clearance and lets me continue forward.

Almost forgot, I do run a front limit strap to keep the front driveshaft from binding, the limit strap is about 10" long.
__________________
Chassis Plans for the Do-It-Yourselfer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Azrckcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 08:04 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
beyer05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member # 27999
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posts: 2,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
If you lower it 2-3" then the whole belly will hit on things only the hangars hit before... food for thought.

I've hit and drug the front hangars on a bunch of things but it's never held me up.. the rear I could see being a totally different story, however.
I agree with this. Unless you are backing up, your front links should act as sliders over the front link mounts. But the rear......Move them up!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
beyer05 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-14-2007, 08:11 AM   #25 (permalink)
Rock God
 
vanguard_anon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 55997
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyer05 View Post
Unless you are backing up, your front links should act as sliders over the front link mounts. But the rear......Move them up!
What happens sometimes is that the other side of the rock/obstacle is dug out and the front sits on the lower link instead of the tires so I don't have traction. That's the motivation for moving it up. Even with the chassis lowered I should get some traction if the tire can touch the ground.

As for the rear, you're right. They are moving up and that plan is set.
__________________
'03 V6 5 speed taco &&
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vanguard_anon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.