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Old 05-26-2008, 08:02 PM   #26 (permalink)
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With the new information / clarification from the OP, I gotta say, do a D44 up front, wishbones (hairpins) and concentrate less on getting significantly larger amounts of 'hook' up front. This will keep the chain alive. A chain driven T-case (at least of a 'normal' modern type) is most likely to break (at least the 'chain' portion) when you are diggin hard when only the front tires have traction.

The 'rear' output stuff is straight-thru and as strong as anything else you could possibly run. With the light weight target, plus the fact that the harder you are hitting this thing, the less load the front would see (at least in -for example- the 60 foot area). Once you get the thing out of the gate, a little weight settles back on the front end and it will do a fine job of keeping you hustling in a straight line. Really would not be much shock load up there.

As far as the T-176 bolting to a Ford bellhousing. The front of the T-176 is the same bolt pattern as a car toploader. My concern is gear ratios, which is why I kinda think C-6, with an advance adapters mainshaft and t-case mount.

Most NP203's are gonna be GM or Dodge, and then you are locked into a pass-drop front axle, which means WIDE track, OR big bling dollars. -EDIT - OR (DUH) - 1979 AND EARLIER FULL SIZE JEEP WAGONEERS AND NARROW-TRACK CHEROKEES - I MUST HAVE HAD A CRACK RELAPSE FOR A SECOND Although, if you COULD find a ford NP203, you would have plenty of beef, and could use a narrower D44 driver drop from a waggy (as mentioned)

regarding the NP229 and 129 availablility, they are everywhere. and they are the 'big' case (like an NP208 -mostly- which is at minimum half-ton -3/4 ton stuff - the 229 and 129 are at least cousins to it) The NP207 and 231 are a much smaller case size (and chain and sprocket size) than those old full-size pieces. - though niether of those 2 are AWD cases, simply used as a size comparison - and people are hanging cherokees, wranglers, and S-10's (usually with an NP231 - or at least they started with one) off their front tires every weekend.

A nine-inch can obviously be built to withstand the force this machine will generate at launch, I would concentrate on the front axle after the 60 foot mark, in the interest of keeping parts alive as much as anything - as well as keeping the machine driveable. If you set up the front suspension to REALLY plant the front tires hard, all strength issues aside, I think you might have yourself a real handfull to keep straight - especially if you plant the right side tire harder than the left.

And for the 'raw' look, a dime-store chrome cover on a D44 front axle, yeah, that would do it. Very anti-tech.

peace
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:29 PM   #27 (permalink)
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What about a 242?
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
They're mentioning the Jeep trans because it uses a Ford bell housing bolt pattern and will mount any of the t-cases mentioned with stock parts. Might take a bit of mixing and matching, but not really tough to do.
Well damn, that is huge. That makes allot more sense now and I really need to look into that, thanks. I honestly have mostly messed with autos before, sorry for my ignorance, but that is why I am here, to learn.

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The first thing that comes to mind is Supercars, one of the issues with AWD platforms is the inertia created by the additional drivetrain and the power robbed by it. AWD is slower off the line than a properly set up RWD because of this. If I were setting up an AWD platform like yours I would still try to keep as typical an AS number on the rear as possible for launch and then rely on the awd for control. I wouldn't want the front to come of the ground, but I would want most of the power to go to the rear wheels. That may be one more thing to look at, can you control the torque split F/R?
I will have to look that up, thanks for the tip. Well I should have a good bit of power to rob, except on a well prepped drag strip running slicks rwd that much power isnít very useful so I may as well waste some of it accelerating drivetrain inertia if it is going to help it hookup in the end.

I was planning on keeping the rear mostly similar to the rwd steup as far as suspension and antisquat. I will play with it and test to see the differences once it is all together though.

I also agree with you on launch, the weight quickly transfers to the rear on a good launch and the hardest launching cars do so on 2 wheels. I think the Lingenfelter s10 proves that it can be done on awd systems as well. If the rear can hook I donít see why this roadster shouldnít do the exact same thing.

The torque split is also a major thing. With the 203 I think you can lock the front and rear for offroad use correct? I donít know about the others but without some major lsd on the differential if you canít lock it enough torque isnít going to be going to to the rear wheels to pull the front end and it certainly wonít keep it there for long with the front axle spinning both tires in the air. If it is locked though it will act as a spool would and 100 percent of the drive torque should transfer to the rear as the front end comes off the ground. Nice.

But for unlocked non drag racing I would like something like a rear biased torsen lsd in the center differential like they use on the skylines and new Quattros and have available aftermarket for evos and wrxs. Well the skyline is computer controlled not torsen but the torque IS still rear biased. This makes it less understeer happy like a straight 50/50 split and you can power on oversteer which is fun. Not a major necessity but it sure would be fun to have. I highly doubt I am going to magically find something like this for a np transfer case though.

The front end suspension reaction bite I am asking about would mainly be for, gulp, street use, or corner exit on a road course where it really needs to maximize all 4 wheels. You can exit corners faster with more rear antisquat because you are using engine torque to artificial raise tire loading and grip more than vehicle weight transfer alone, so why not try and also do this with the front axle as well? I think this is part of the reasoning behind the better cornering of a certain kit for the wrx which introduces pro-lift in the front end.

Effect of Whiteline Anti-Lift Kit PDF

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I know your working with a Ford motor... still good info though. I like the RAWNESS of what your proposing

-Tim
Yes that is an excellent resource. I knew I would find a good bit on the Lingenfelter stuff , I just had not got to it yet. Those pictures of that guy doing the wheelstand then crashing the truck are a bit scary. I never thought about the combination of trying to control landing back down out of a wheelstand AND possible front torque steer as the torque also jumps back to the front wheels while they land when you are still on the accelerator. I don't think there are many vehicles or drivers that have to contend with this.

It also says the tcase is from a yukon, is this the same typhoon tcase?

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Old 05-26-2008, 08:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Hey Dave I just saw your post. I gotta goto bed but you got allot of stuff there I will respond to tommorro if I can.

You really think the D44 is strong enough and the chain is the weak link? Is this a major consensus because a stronger front axle with more grip will be a waste if it is just gonna break the tcase chain.

Also I have just been thinking about the building and dynamics of the thing, I hadn't really thought about actually needing to control it all that much. That crashed s10 is making me think now though, you really might have a point on that part as well.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:45 PM   #30 (permalink)
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snip..... 99 percent of people don't get me 99 percent of the time it feels like.
Welcome to the club, Brother Tim. Welcome to the club.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:59 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Ive seen a hybrid world class T-5 that came off the back of a 5.0 to a 6-bolt case. Ive heard they can be built stout, but in stock condition they are not all to hot. Just another option.
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Old 05-27-2008, 06:00 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TimIacobucci View Post
Also someone said something about a part time case and narrow hard tires, I am building this to really work. And hard narrow tires don’t really work well and I think grippy wide tires will eat a locked part time case alive when trying to turn all the time with no differential. No offense, I appreciate the idea and it would help a ton if I could use a np205 or similar part time case but this is just not the route I really want to go with it.
That was this guy saying that. If it's not the route you want to go with that is perfectly understandable. Like I said in my post...you would want to leave it in 2wd most of the time and lock it in to 4wd when you wanted to go fast which I figured would most likely be a straight line. That may or may not be the case. Either way...you're most likely going to break something else before you break a 205.

The case I listed at the top of my post is an all wheel drive case used in the H1. There is some argument over the name as to whether or not it should be an NVG242HDAMG or if NV242AMG gets the point across sufficiently. Either way it is based on an NV241HD which is a surprisingly strong case. The input torque rating on it is not all that high, but it is rated for a substantially higher GVWR than you would see on most other cases. I liken it to an Allison AT545 tranmission. It's only rated for in the neighborhood of 450 ft lbs in input torque, but it's rated to do that at a 30,000 lbs GVWR. As such I doubt a 3500 lbs race car with 1000 ft lbs of torque is going to hurt it.
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:53 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Tim, sounds like a cool project, got pics?

Edit: Generally you want the same gear ratos and tires size all the way around, but to keep the hot rod look, with proper gear ratio calculations, you could run smaller tires up front and some big fatties in the back.

This is Ferris McCollum’s pink '30 Ford Hotrod (TTC 2001),and from 4WOR rag

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Old 05-27-2008, 09:54 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Not much else to add here, but you might want to take a look at Novak's site while you're in the research mode. Their online 'knowledge base' is a good starting point.

Looks like the T176 was available with (at least) three different gear ratios depending on application.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/t176.htm
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:19 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Firstly let me ask if anyone has any links or info for the mud dragsters, because I canít find anything technical on them anywhere so far. This is really something close to my design ideas and I really wish I could find more specific information about them.

Ok Iíve done a bit more research on the transmissions and transfer cases.

Firstly most of the jeep and even np435 type truck transmissions donít seem like they are going to work all that well. The gear ratios are just too wide and low I think to use for a light car meant to go fast. The granny first in most of the stronger ones will be useless and even the non granny ones are not very optimal. Most second gears are even lower than first on a car tranny. Secondly I think they will probably break.
The RUG type 10 bolt top cover car ford toploaders, not the t18/t19 or np435 toploaders used in ford trucks, are allot stronger than these truck trannys and I am exceeding even the rated capacity for quality rebuild recommendations on those. Also how do they shift? I want to shift this thing fast, and I hear truck trannys are not really the ticket for this.

Quote:
Like I said in my post...you would want to leave it in 2wd most of the time and lock it in to 4wd when you wanted to go fast which I figured would most likely be a straight line. That may or may not be the case. Either way...you're most likely going to break something else before you break a 205.
As for the transfer cases the 242 seems like a very interesting case, optional 2wd and full differential action in 4wd for true full time operation. I do appreciate the use in the military hummers and the 30,000 lbs GVWR. But my main concern is the strength of it. It weighs 85lb vs the np203 at like 170lbs. That is one hell of a difference and the chain is nearly 2x the size. Some people are still thinking the chain will break on the 203 too so how is this 242 suppose to hold up? And I really want to have full time all wheel drive for street and road race type driving so the part time cases arenít going to work. I certainly canít be driving with a part time case locked in 4wd with 4 big sticky tires trying to turn with no differentiation, especially turning while racing. Like you said even if the np205 isnít gonna break itís gonna break something else eventually, not to mention it would handle like crap and wear the hell out of the tires.

I also would like the front driveshaft to be along the passenger side for space reasons. I would like to get it low and I think the clutch linkage and steering might interfere with a driver side front shaft. Also I would like to use a passenger side regular style dana 60 pinion input because I would also like to try and use a front transverse leaf spring and the high reverse cut style pinion will definitely interfere with that in addition to being driver side. As far as I know all np242 implementations are driver side front output right?

Here are 2 pictures I found of the np242 and np203 internals.

np242

np203


Tell me the difference isn't huge there, all ratings aside that chain and the aluminum vs cast iron housing make a world of difference.

If you can remove the gear reduction section of the np203 for use separately in a doubler setup would it be possible to use the remaining tcase without the gear reduction section? If it is used divorced it basically just needs a simple cover and a modified yoke end for the remaining input shaft right? How much weight and length would this cut off the np203?

But I figure if I gotta have the big 203 or something similar with gear reduction, even the 242 has this, do you think it would be possible to use the gear reduction as a gear splitter?

If I choose the lowest ring and pinion ratios I can find for the front and back differentials, would it be possible to make a full 1/4 mile run in low range on the transfer case? Then use the high range for street and highway cruising? I wondered about the abuse the driveshafts would see with the normal torque loads doubled but you guys run crazy granny lows in first and then use the transfer case gear reduction on top of that and your driveshafts live. Do you guys really ever get on the throttle hard when youíre using that much gear though? Does anyone know where to get gears under 3:1 for a 9Ē and dana 60 dif?

How harsh is shifting between ranges on a np203 on the fly with full clutch disengagement? I canít tell if it is synchronized at all. That would be crazy to set the 203 up dual stick and have the tcase differential locked like a spool front to back with the one stick for a drag run and launch in low range and shift into high range with the other stick and downshift the tranny after 4th gear is topped out and run it like a 5 or 6 speed. Haha, I imagine that would take some time to learn to shift that way in a reasonably quick manner.

Hell, it would just be crazy having it geared for drag racing then geared to run 250 mph with one shift.

Ferris McCollumís ride is awesome. That is very much what I am thinking, just lower with slightly different big tires on all 4.
That reminds me for those who were asking I do plan on using equal tire size and gearing on the front and rear axles.

How wide is a d60 knuckle and disc brake setup all together? Like what size rim would be needed to fit that stuff in there with some good wheel backspacing? I am thinking one of the major advantages of a straight axle is that the camber never changes. If I can get the wheel over the disc brakes and knuckle far enough I should be able to get pretty much constant zero scrub radius to control those big tires and severe torque steer.

If I can work around the driver side front driveshaft who thinks a lighter np242 with a dana 44 would work the best?

Who thinks that stuff will break and I should build a np203 with a dana 60 the first time?
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:40 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:48 AM   #37 (permalink)
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If I can work around the driver side front driveshaft who thinks a lighter np242 with a dana 44 would work the best?

Who thinks that stuff will break and I should build a np203 with a dana 60 the first time?
I think for what you are trying to do a 44 or 9" with 44 outers would be the way to go. The knuckles on a 60 are huge and I doubt you will be loading the front end that hard (unless to show off you do a front burn) I wonder if a WJ knuckle assembly and cv would be better as you are wanting to have power to the front all the time.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:21 AM   #38 (permalink)
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If you are up for the fab work (not impossible, just slightly new territory) I vote for the divorced, range-box-less 203.

Except for the fact that -

Plant the rear tires hard, lift the fronts just enough to spin, and you are smoking the fronts due to the open diff in the 203 - Unless of course you are going to do the drag work with the case locked.

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Old 05-30-2008, 12:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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X2. Thats exactly how I would do it.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:50 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I think for what you are trying to do a 44 or 9" with 44 outers would be the way to go. The knuckles on a 60 are huge and I doubt you will be loading the front end that hard (unless to show off you do a front burn) I wonder if a WJ knuckle assembly and cv would be better as you are wanting to have power to the front all the time.
Why a 9" with dana 44 ends? Aren't the outer knuckles usually the weak link on the dana 44? Why put the strongest differential with the weakest ends? If anything wouldn't it better to use d60 outers on the 9" to save weight over the d60 housing? I might do that depending on how much the dana 60 weighs over a 9". It just seems silly to get a whole d60 just for the outers and cut it up and still need custom axles when I could just use the whole thing.

Also I saw that Longfield had CV joints for a d60 like you were talking about with the WJ. They are expensive but I think you are right about the importance of constant velocity with a full time front end. I also think the turning radius capability would be greatly improved. I don't see that they have one for a d44 though. If I did this then going with the 9" would make more sense since I am changing the axles anyways.

Thompson Coupling This would be really sick though. It looks a bit big to fit nicely between a kingpin setup though.

I would like to experiment with allot of pro-lift on the front suspension and see how it works, so I do plan to load the front pretty hard.
Quote:
Plant the rear tires hard, lift the fronts just enough to spin, and you are smoking the fronts due to the open diff in the 203 - Unless of course you are going to do the drag work with the case locked.
I figure I will have to lock the center differential for drag racing just because there is no possibility of any type of limited slip for it.

I would love it if I could get a torsen for it. The way the differential is driven makes that difficult though. It is driven by the input shaft from the range box which passes through the hollow output shaft that turns the chain that drives the front axle and connects through a splined circle in the center via a cross between the spider gears which turns the entire carrier without directly driving either the front or rear output shafts, accept through the spider gears differential action.

It's at the bottom part of the picture, the upper output shaft is a 2wd conversion peice that eliminates the differential entirely.


This is crazy and unique, it took me a while to figure out because I have never seen or heard of it before, but that area in the center of the carrier is where most limited slip devices live.

But then I found this picture of and audi transfer case and it is setup in a similar but reverse fashion with the input shaft turning the carrier directly but having the front and rear outputs from the differential passing over one another still running through the center. but it still retains a torsen limited slip around the outside of the carrier with the shafts occupying the center. So it is possible but really complex and there is probably little market for it in a np203 transfer case.


A torsen needs input torque from one side to function so like the hummer it must be brake modulated if one wheel comes off the ground. That would probably make it less desirable vs a locker or other limited slip for most off road applications for this tcase, and I think those types of lsd are not possible because of the setup I described. Not to mention you can already lock it with the stock shifter, and unlock it if you get bound up, so you basically got a mechanical arb in it to start with, so there is nearly zero demand for the limited slip carrier that I would really like to have.

I don't think I'm gonna find any transfer case applications that are strong enough that have one either unless I actually steal one out of an audi. Which would be expensive and hard to find and probably not nearly as strong as a 203 and that would also be greatly deviating from the build concept I had going of using old hardcore stuff.

Quote:
I vote for the divorced, range-box-less 203.
Has anyone ever done this before that you know of?

I don't know allot about the range doubler mod, do you need the 203 input shaft for the 205 doubler setup? Or could I get a 203 and sell the range box off keeping the input shaft if I go this route?

Also any opinions on keeping the range box and using it as a gear splitter? The more I thought about that the cooler it seems actually.
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Old 05-30-2008, 03:14 PM   #41 (permalink)
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If your interested in pursuing the Audi center diff, You might give Chris Kapitski a call at Fast Enough Performance. He's a VW and Audi guru that has been in European Car magazine several times with his personal Audi Quattro that puts over 1000hp to all 4 wheels. He has a VW and Audi junkyard beside his shop and probably has a center diff that will handle your engine at his shop. You may have to get creative to mate it up to whatever tranny you choose...

Fast Enough Performance (859) 258-2015
Ask for Chris (the owner) and pitch your idea to him... tell him Tim at Bent Fabrications gave you the number.


Setting up the front suspension to be a 5 linked "suicide axle" setup would not be hard to do... but the chassis would have to be carefully engineered around the link locations for everything you need up there to fit and function. You haven't talked about what type of platform your going to try to set this all up on. I'm guessing your wanting a 1/2 chassis (top open) built to handle this much power? I'm not sure a standard frame rail design will handle the torsion that planting those 4 tires will generate? Ideas, or have you even thought this far?

I don't know your level of Fabrication, but if your interested in having part of this built.. I'd be game to step up. I'm no stranger to huge HP and know more than a little about getting it to the ground.


-Tim
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Old 05-30-2008, 04:39 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Wow thanks man that is a huge help. I never heard of that quattro but it sounds crazy, I will look it up. Should I call during regular business hours on a weekday or when would be a good time to call you think?

That is weird you mention that, my whole inspiration and the genisis of my intrest in awd was from watching old group B rally videos. That psycho quattro sport they were running was terrifying.



For the Chassis, well until I found out about the mud dragster setup I was planning a more basic version of an altered drag chassis but widened for 2 people. I want to build it with the top open but I am not entirely opposed to closing it for a full cage if it seems to flex too much. Whatever iteration I want full roll over protection. I am leaving the engine bay totally open so running support from the main cage section around the engine to support the front suspension mounting locations shouldn't be a problem.

I would like to build as much of this as I can, I really do appreciate your help Tim and if I had the money and wanted to go that route I would definitely hand the chassis construction over to you. I just like to build most everything I can myself. I also like this because if things break I have no one else to blame.(I'm not implying your stuff breaks) This is new ground though chassis wise integrating these kinds of front axle forces.

Like everything else I was discussing I will build it overkill, I will brace the hell out of everything even if it makes it heavier. I want a strong dependable structure. Not some feather weight tube chassis that is bent and cracking after 1 year of hard use.

I think I am going to try and plan this out and make a computer model of it so I can show you what I am talking about. I have a degree in computer animation but I haven't messed with autocad or engineering programs before though. Is there a pretty basic program I could start out with for testing suspension dynamics?
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Old 05-30-2008, 04:47 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Do you guys feel it is violating the spirit of this build to use an audi transfer case?

I really like the idea of using the np203 and staying with the whole old school american truck parts theme. Having a newer foreign tcase right in the heart of the system seems a little funny.

I know I said function over form but how much do you think having an open center diff most of the time is really going to affect it? For drag racing I can still lock it. And a straight torsen center diff with nothing else will actual start to open if the front wheels begin to leave the ground, actually I don't think it wouldn't even be able to transfer enough power to the rear axle to pull a wheelstand like a locked center diff could.

I guess that would be something to discuss with Mr. Kapitski though.
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:56 PM   #44 (permalink)
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You may consider an FJ-80 front end. You will not find the high gearing, however it will have birfields and be very strong.

-cYou might also look into the ARB diffs offered for some t-cases, I wouldnt be above using an audi case if you can.
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Old 05-30-2008, 06:19 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Most of us on here are do-it-yourselfers as well There are some incredibly sharp people that lurk around on here... and if you present reasonable questions with a cool project... many knowledgeable people will step in to help. Definitely keep us posted on how this turns out, and with further questions if you get stumped.

You don't have to overbuild the chassis.. just do a lot of planning. Since performance is the main concern, work with suspension design and geometry first... then design the chassis to work with the suspension. There are several programs that can help out with suspension dynamics, and there is DAYS worth of reading about suspension found in the archives of Pirate4x4. You won't be able to use the search feature without being a RED STAR member of Pirate. It's cheaper than a magazine subscription and will open up a wealth of knowledge that no magazine could ever cover...

Give Chris a call (during East Coast business hours). He's the man when it comes to AWD and huge power.


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Old 05-30-2008, 06:31 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TimIacobucci View Post
Do you guys feel it is violating the spirit of this build to use an audi transfer case?

I really like the idea of using the np203 and staying with the whole old school american truck parts theme. Having a newer foreign tcase right in the heart of the system seems a little funny.

If you wanted to stay "Old School".. They used dual sprockets and chains in homade housings to direct drive the front end... some of the mud guys still do!!

I know it needs to "look raw and ratty", but if you want to do all wheel drifts with the spirit of a rally car or an EVO road racer... you'll need to bring on the tech when it comes to drive line.



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Old 05-30-2008, 07:19 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Why not a NV146??? AWD transfer case found in the SRT8 Grand Cherokee. Of course, it's of the same lineage of the NP203, saves weight and is rated for more torque (New Process became New Venture). Holding 600+ HP in a Hennessey SRT600:

http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/...s_pricing.html

Out accelerates the SRT10 Vipers...

American Made and adaptable to the Jeep transmissions we're discussing that could put car internals into a 4wd case for closer shift ratios.

Jeep T-5 with Ford World Class guts, Jeep 23 spline output shaft and 6 bolt round adapter to this t-case
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:41 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Hello again everyone, I have some more questions for you guys.

I have been trying to look into the passenger car guts in a truck toploader idea. I canít find a whole lot so far. Which transmission exactly is it that would work for this? The t176 family?

From the few pictures I have seen these are all top shifted. I am interested in the side shift rail toploader design. Are there any jeep or truck 4 spds like this?

I am thinking now even with a well built toploader it would only be a matter of time before I break it. So now I am thinking I will probably need something like an aftermarket Jericho which is still based on a the ford toploader but significantly stronger. I am not sure but if it is possible to put passenger car internals into a t176 then it may also be possible to see if Jericho could throw their stuff into that same case.

If this is possible it should be able to bolt to a ford toploader bellhousing for a big block and a np203 directly right? How strong is this case? There is not much point in throwing heavy duty expensive guts into a case that is going to break.

I havenít had a chance to call Fast Enough Performance to find out much about the audi t case but if I go that way or try and de-rangebox the 203 then the t case will be divorced anyways and it would be much simpler to use the standard Jericho.

Quote:
Why not a NV146??? AWD transfer case found in the SRT8 Grand Cherokee. Of course, it's of the same lineage of the NP203, saves weight and is rated for more torque (New Process became New Venture). Holding 600+ HP in a Hennessey SRT600:
What transmissions does this bolt to? I canít really find much of any information about it? Is it relatively new? I am looking for mostly accessible junkyard sourced stuff to modify and build up if needed. Also 600hp is not 800 and it is not even the power really. Most modern car engines rev higher and make less torque relative to power and also use stupid low profile tires that canít launch hard, this all combines to be much kinder regarding drivetrain shock loads. It is the 800 ft/lbs of big block launching on huge grippy tires that worries me.

Quote:
You don't have to overbuild the chassis.. just do a lot of planning. Since performance is the main concern, work with suspension design and geometry first... then design the chassis to work with the suspension. There are several programs that can help out with suspension dynamics, and there is DAYS worth of reading about suspension found in the archives of Pirate4x4. You won't be able to use the search feature without being a RED STAR member of Pirate. It's cheaper than a magazine subscription and will open up a wealth of knowledge that no magazine could ever cover...
I have been looking around here allot. Youíre right there is a whole ton of info here to go through. I do get the feeling that most of the suspension design is based around eliminating binding and increasing articulation. The prolift and antisquat characteristics I am looking for information on are technically bind. The basic chassis structures and material and resources information is applicable and plentiful here though.

Also I can use the search now, but I actually prefer the (search query) site:https://www.pirate4x4.com google function to most forumís native search engines. This also works well for any other forum you want to search on as well even if you don't have an account that is usually required to use the search function in case anyone might find it useful.

Quote:
If you wanted to stay "Old School".. They used dual sprockets and chains in homade housings to direct drive the front end... some of the mud guys still do!!
That sounds badass actually. But that seems like it might be a bit of a safety thing with some big chains wiping through the engine compartment with it being so low and all. A shaft seems much more containable. Also I donít see how direct drive would have much differentiation.

Quote:
I know it needs to "look raw and ratty", but if you want to do all wheel drifts with the spirit of a rally car or an EVO road racer... you'll need to bring on the tech when it comes to drive line.
Well it doesnít HAVE to look any certain way. The body and outer appearance are not going to be affected much by the transfer case I donít think. It was more the spirit of the build itself I meant. The whole idea of using old school 60ís parts in a 20ís car is the main theme of a classic hot rod. Using a 385 big block, 4 spd toploader and 9Ē is standard stuff, but an np203 and a dana 44/60 are just about as old and classic I would say. A modern audi t case thoughÖ

But like I said function over form so if it gets the job done better I will do it if it is available and possible.

I also think for drifting around a locked center diff ala np203 will work plenty fine for that. I was wondering about actual handling and road racing. Iím still not even sure a locked center wouldnít work ok for that too though. I am just used to a rear torque bias (ie rear drive) and I see that is what most of the better rally type all wheel drive systems use. I really have no idea how a straight 50/50 locked center will behave. I think front/back pro-lift/anti-squat interaction might have an even bigger affect on weight transfer and handling, especially with a torsen type limited slip center differential which would automatically bias more torque to which ever end is getting more traction (which would largely be based on weight transfer).

Quote:
You may consider an FJ-80 front end. You will not find the high gearing, however it will have birfields and be very strong.
I have found some basic info on these. They seem promising, cvís on the front end are a fairly high priority. From what I have found most people donít drive the front axle on their trucks all too often and the U joint angle isnít usually much of an issue and why they can get away with it, but you donít see many U joints on front or all wheel drive cars these days.

What are the general guidelines for strength on these axles as far as power and tire size compared to other front axles? I see that longfield has upgrades for these as well, at what point would this upgrade be advisable?

I donít mean to be so anal about strength but one of the main reasons for planning this all out now is so I donít have to keep redesigning the thing for new parts after I break the existing ones. I would like to build it strong enough the first time if you see what I am saying and then there is the obvious damage that is possible to other components or myself or others when something breaks that I would like to avoid.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:06 PM   #49 (permalink)
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On a side note how do you guys feel about a CJ grill on a rat rod roadster? They are not really that far off from the original roadster.




I mean it's going to be parts from a bunch of cars and trucks,a ford engine a dodge or audi transfer case a dana or toyota front axle. Allot of it will be completely custom and aftermarket too so there isn't a whole lot of brand loyalty. I just don't know the legacy of the jeep grill to be sticking it on there other than the fact that I think it looks cool and goes with the 4x4 parts. Are jeep guys gonna be getting on my ass because it isn't really a jeep or a real off road vehicle? Or if I put Ford/Jeep/Toyota embelms next to one another on the grill? hehe

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Old 06-06-2008, 09:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Dammit Tim.... you've got me thinking too much again. Some of the stuff I'm finding really makes me want to build something. But I'd want Very modern drivetrane with a Rat body hiding it all... Found this and thought it has to be the coolest Beetle ever. Just swap out the already suicided out front axle for a Toy axle and make a few changes here and there.... I'm going to get in trouble

I know it's not what your thinking but it's cool none the less... -Tim









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