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Old 10-15-2008, 08:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Why don't we use gear pumps instead of ps pumps?

I don't know, I could be completely off base here. And this isn't necessarily a link to the exact pump I would think of using, just an example as it meets or exceeds the flow and pressure numbers that we generally think we need for out rear-steer and junk and they are made to run in that range (ie, no hot-rodding an innadequate pump). I haven't done the math but I assume a pulley could be made to keep it within its RPM range. They're also WAY cheaper than the aftermarket guys are charging for their souped-up crap that dies every year. There's two whole pages of pumps with different specs in my new Bailey catalog that just arrived. If people start arguing about specific specs I'll scan and post the pages so that they can pick what they think has the right specs.

http://baileynet.com/index.php?page=...leynum=252-162

While we're on the topic, what's the formula for figuring out rate reduction of pullies?

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:03 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Two things that come to mind right away...are they rated for continuous duty (the applications listed are things like dump bodies, lift gates etc), and is the input shaft supported well enough to take a pulley (overhung load vs. direct coupled)?
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I used one of those for about a yr and a half. It was frickin awesome. Still got it on the parts shelf. I had to rig up a goofy pulley system for it. With the 2F motor, I wasn't concerned with going over the 3500 RPM limit of the pump, not by much. Keep in mind that the RPM limit they post is a continuous number - they are designed to be bolted to an engine that sits at 3500 RPM all day long, short bursts above are probably OK. I know I pushed mine to 4000 or so on several occasions. Now that I have a new motor with a 6000+ red line, I didn't think the pump would take it, so I hooked up 2 POS tc pumps, and it's honestly just about the same as the one gear-driven hydro pump. If you want the specs on the pump I have I can get em for ya - and I'll even make you a deal on it, pulley system included...
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I know this has been talked about before and I know you do research so I wont tell you to go search. I thought I have a subscribed thread to one of them but I don't.

I am planning on using a Vickers VTM42 power steering pump. They have a higher in put speed from 5000 rpm to 7000 and flow rate from 1.5gpm to 7.5gpm. I am going to use the 5gpm at max rpm of 6000 with 2000psi. Shopping around I have found this pump for around $300 (IIRC). I don't believe that a regular power steering pump will handle my front and rear planetary steer axles. The cylinders are bigger and need more flow. Here are some links to the data for Vickers pumps.

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/353.pdf
http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/m2052s.pdf
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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One of my friends (mainejeeps) is running a hydro pump off a lobster boat that's probably 40 years old.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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find millerxc on here. Surplus center had a gear pump that was $186 a couple years back that was pressure and flow reg'd, with the pressure adjustable. the flow was set at 7 gpm. continuous, made for a 3500 max speed. Okay, you turn 6 grand, put a larger pulley on it than the crank. now how slow are you at idle. He said it was the one the monster trucks run, and he talked to several of the monster truck crew guys. his is on his monster and still going strong. they take the rpm well. the dual reg'd one quit showing up on the site a while back so I gave up on it.
search for posts by millerxc and the 5 ton crazy thread.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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it has been covered many times in here but people just dont believe regular hyrdo pump can out run your superhyper blingbling ps pumps.


https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...053&highlight=

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Old 10-15-2008, 12:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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it has been covered many times in here but people just dont believe regular hyrdo pump can out run your superhyper blingbling ps pumps.


https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...053&highlight=

HAHAHAA - Amen - one of your posts a few years back is what convinced me to try it in the first place...
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I used one of those for about a yr and a half. It was frickin awesome. Still got it on the parts shelf. I had to rig up a goofy pulley system for it. With the 2F motor, I wasn't concerned with going over the 3500 RPM limit of the pump, not by much. Keep in mind that the RPM limit they post is a continuous number - they are designed to be bolted to an engine that sits at 3500 RPM all day long, short bursts above are probably OK. I know I pushed mine to 4000 or so on several occasions. Now that I have a new motor with a 6000+ red line, I didn't think the pump would take it, so I hooked up 2 POS tc pumps, and it's honestly just about the same as the one gear-driven hydro pump. If you want the specs on the pump I have I can get em for ya - and I'll even make you a deal on it, pulley system included...
I'd like to get those specs and any videos of you working your system and maybe specs of the resevoir that you used and how you connected it to the pump.

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Just spoke to Bailey. They are not rated for side-loaded bearings, ie pulleys. Mento to be shaft-driven. They did say that certainly some are pulley-driven though and that it would just reduce the life expectancy.

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Just spoke to Bailey. They are not rated for side-loaded bearings, ie pulleys. Mento to be shaft-driven. They did say that certainly some are pulley-driven though and that it would just reduce the life expectancy.

J. J.


so build a custom mount so it is facing backwards. run a shaft from an idler pully to the shaft.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Why not electric-drive the pump? Would the current draw of the required DC motor be too much for an automotive charging system?
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I thought about that and the general belief is that yes, it would be FAR too much draw.

I suppose that nothing says it has to be crank-driven though. You could drive it off of an a/c, alternator, or water pump pulley.

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
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you can use a carrier bearing in between the pulley and the pump to take away thee side load on the shaft
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Here's a shot of the old setup. I wound up welding a threaded rod to the tip of the pump shaft, to stick out and give something to tighten the pulley down with. Found the pulley and splined piece at a local store specializing in such items. Pump flows 1.22 cu in per rev and is rated for 3500 RPM, and 3000 psi. I had run the numbers at one point, and I think I was getting around 5 gpm at idle, and like 15 to 20 up at max RPM. It uses standard O-ring ports, I believe #10 or 12 on the pressure side, and #16 on the inlet. PM me if you're interested in the pump - I'll give u a smoking deal and include the fittings n stuff...

Only vid I know of is this one -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sakpC4RMXA

Not a really great example - but it was fast enough to kep up with a 2.5" ram up front, and 3" in the rear simultaneously...
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Do you have a Brand name and part number for the pump you were using?

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post

While we're on the topic, what's the formula for figuring out rate reduction of pullies?

J. J.
To figure rpms it would be rpms of the drive pulley times diameter of the drive pulley divided by the diameter of the driven pulley.
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Do you have a Brand name and part number for the pump you were using?

J. J.
Prince sp20a20

Here's a link to the specs and the rest of that line,
Prince Pumps

What I was originally planning was stacking 2 of em. You can them that bolt together, the front pump has a female output shaft on the back. Unfortunately, I couldn't get two of em to fit next to the motor where they needed to go...
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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extend the shaft and/or couple it to something with a double shear type of mount so there is no side loading on the original shaft with the pulley..
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I've been thinkin of this. I work on forklifts for a living and I have 2-3 of these sittin in my tool box. Almost never have a problem with them leaking.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:23 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I've been thinkin of this. I work on forklifts for a living and I have 2-3 of these sittin in my tool box. Almost never have a problem with them leaking.
How are they driven on a fork-lift?

J. J.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I have seen them mounted in front of the crank pulley, on a shaft runs from the crank to the pump, I have also seen them mounted directly in front of the crank using an atriflex coupling.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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a pump off a cummins NTC is a big gear driven pump, looks to have some fancy valving off the back so I suspect its got flow pressure control
I popped the hood after seeing this thread the first time but couldnt find any good links online with the part number.
they run twin steering boxes on dumptrucks off those pumps so should be up to the task
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:08 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Here's what I'm envisioning: One of those pumps mounted right up againt the radiator with the shaft pointing toward the engine with small driveshaft with a slipyoke on it and two small u-joints ... similar to a steering shaft almost going to the crank.

J. J.
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Last edited by patooyee; 10-15-2008 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You need some type of reduction unless the pump is rated for + 3500 rpm use. For a deisel direct drive off the crank would be great. I think you could make a small jack shaft and run it with a pulley and not have any side load on the pumps bearings.
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