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Old 01-06-2009, 08:03 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Rockwell Front Hub Flip...New Tech

There has been a lot of discussion on this subject, but I had not seen a really clean answer. So here is what I did. I removed the 12 studs in the knuckle....countersunk the holes in the spindle with an 82 degree countersink....bought 24 flush mount bolts / 3/8-16 x 1". When you countersink the spindle and install the flush bolts....you don't need to machine or grind anything on the hub or wheel studs. I will try to get some pics of this this weekend if anyone is interested. Total cost was $3.78 for the bolts (I already had the 82 degree countersink).
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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this was done many many years ago . i did mine
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 73FJBUGGY View Post
There has been a lot of discussion on this subject, but I had not seen a really clean answer. So here is what I did. I removed the 12 studs in the knuckle....countersunk the holes in the spindle with an 82 degree countersink....bought 24 flush mount bolts / 3/8-16 x 1". When you countersink the spindle and install the flush bolts....you don't need to machine or grind anything on the hub or wheel studs. I will try to get some pics of this this weekend if anyone is interested. Total cost was $3.78 for the bolts (I already had the 82 degree countersink).
Nope... nothing new about this mod.

I'm not a fan of countersunk bolts but whatever floats your boat. Studs have more strength then bolts and the stock ones can be made to work fine. Cut the stud off flush with the top of the nut, grind some of the lug bolt stud down and walla.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't understand why many guys waste all the time to counter sink an already fairly thin piece of metal and make it weaker. The spindle is a well know weak part of a rockwell. Its extremely simple. When you press out your wheel studs to flip your hubs grind or machine down the back of the head of the stud maybe at most 3/16 to 8th inch. I machined mine to the rib on the head. This way you don't mess with the spindle and your not affecting the strength of the stud. mine have been fine for over 2yrs now.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Many ways to skin a cat....Even if this idea might not be new to many of you...I had not seen a write up on it...so I thought I would give some info. The spindle is thick enough to handle the countersink and the flush bolts have the same tensile strength as the stud. It takes less time to countersink the spindle than chuck 12 studs in the lathe and machine them. To each their own....I only put this up for the one guy who might need the info.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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flush bolts have the same tensile strength as the stud.
Wrong!

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It takes less time to countersink the spindle than chuck 12 studs in the lathe and machine them.
Orely? Maybe for you, but I just use a 4 1/2" grinder with a cut off wheel and walla done... How hard can it be?
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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ive never done this mod, dont have rockwells but i just gotta say that at least its tech being posted to try and help people and not the bullcrap that gen4x4 seems to attract sometimes. Even if its not the way you would do it, i like that its aimed to answer questions rather than someone wanting everyone to come running to help him. Just my $.02
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Remove the studs, they are junk grade 5. Use grade 8 bolts 1.00" long and a timken 3926 bearing race on the inner bearing, this race stands .125 taller that the 3920. You will only need to remove a small amount from the head of the wheel studs. Have fun.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Wrong!



Orely? Maybe for you, but I just use a 4 1/2" grinder with a cut off wheel and walla done... How hard can it be?
I dont know I think given the choice I would use a lathe over a grinder any day of the week. Something about pride in workmanship, and precision. ...I used a grinder though because I didn't have a lathe. I like Steves mod.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Remove the studs, they are junk grade 5. Use grade 8 bolts 1.00" long and a timken 3926 bearing race on the inner bearing, this race stands .125 taller that the 3920. You will only need to remove a small amount from the head of the wheel studs. Have fun.
I think I would listen to this guy!!
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Tough crowd huh? Your rig is your chance to do whatever you want. I merely was giving my direction in some detail to anyone who might find it helpful. My mod is strong, leaves plenty of material on the spindle and uses grade 8, 1", socket flat head bolts. Landslide's response of "wrong" shows his ignorance. My Father has run a machine shop for the last 40 years and I have been with him fabricating more things than you can imagine from one off milled and machined small parts to fabricated-from-scatch bridge cranes. BigDusty seems to understand the point and Steve seems to know his stuff....his way shows thought and design. I'm also with Bagman about the precision mods...I'm not big on half ass grinding if I can machine it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Countersunk

I too countersunk with hub flip. I started to turn the face of the hub, but decided it would be better to countersink, than to take strength away from the hub, or stud.
A counter sunk head provides more contact area with less "shear length". Countersinking the spindle will not take away strength as long as the countersink does not go so low that the screw head is below flush (so no material in that void now).

Machine when you can, grind when you can't
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Why isnt your spindles seated all the way in the last pic. I think the countersink is stronger if you use grage 8 or better bolts. Plus the bigger bolt head can take more pressure load over a 9/16 head bolt. And it spends the load out over the spindle more to.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
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My 2, If you are going to pound it like you stole it leave as much material on it as you can. There is always a weak link.I did the grade 8 and ground a smig.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I too countersunk with hub flip. I started to turn the face of the hub, but decided it would be better to countersink, than to take strength away from the hub, or stud.
A counter sunk head provides more contact area with less "shear length". Countersinking the spindle will not take away strength as long as the countersink does not go so low that the screw head is below flush (so no material in that void now).

Machine when you can, grind when you can't
Its going to be fun getting those allen head screws out in two years.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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x2

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Its going to be fun getting those allen head screws out in two years.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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x2
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:27 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks BDA....your pics are great and show what I'm talking about. If anyone is reading all this and is new to Rockwells and wants to flip his hubs....this is just one of the ways to do it. Your Rig...your choice. I like this way the best and feel it is the cleanest, cheapest way to do a strong flip.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:47 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 73FJBUGGY View Post
Thanks BDA....your pics are great and show what I'm talking about. If anyone is reading all this and is new to Rockwells and wants to flip his hubs....this is just one of the ways to do it. Your Rig...your choice. I like this way the best and feel it is the cleanest, cheapest way to do a strong flip.

Strong is doubtful flat head screws grade 8 or not, this is not the application for them.
#1 flathead screws have way to much friction load in order for them to be tightened properly.
#2 Your never going to get all of the countersinks at an equal separation evenly on the bolt circle, this will cause uneven loading on the bolt heads which will start snapping bolt heads off.

I would not recommend this mod to anyone its not safe.

Period

Listen to Steve G he knows what he is doing.

I am just a machinist, I don't know much


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Old 01-09-2009, 07:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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You are welcome to your opinion....I feel it is incorrect. The mod IS strong and my Machinist Father with 40 years of experience agrees. I had no problem making a very clean and perfect countersink with no excessive side load on the bolt. Remember...this axle was designed for a fully loaded Duece and a half....the 2,500lbs I am putting on each axle is way below it's limit. Ask BDA....have you been snapping bolts on this "very unsafe mod," as Mad Mac would have us believe?

P.S. We all agree that Steve knows a thing or two...go Steve!
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:18 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Grinding the back of the wheel studs is a much better option than the countersank spindle bolts, it's not like the wheel studs are going to rip from the hub. An even better option is to machine the hubs and recess the back of the wheel studs.

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Old 07-14-2009, 05:45 AM   #22 (permalink)
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grinding the back of the wheel studs is a much better option than the countersank spindle bolts, it's not like the wheel studs are going to rip from the hub. An even better option is to machine the hubs and recess the back of the wheel studs.
x2.
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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why not counter bore your hubs so the head of the stud is at or below the surface.then if you want to flip out you still have the full head
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Trimming the spindle studs (or getting shorter ones) and machining off some surface from the backside of the hub is the strongest way to do the hub flip. It's the thickest & strongest component of the spindle / spindle studs / hub and wheel stud equation. Then, the wheel studs are recessed some and do not need to be machined down or have the grinder taken to them.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
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It's funny how controversial this mod seems to be...There are usually multiple ways to accomplish the same task. Countersink, grind, recess, whatever you want to do is your business. Countersunk spindles have been beat mercilessly and had no trouble, but anything can be broken. I just wanted to give some details out to those thinking of doing a flip. On another note, I ended up flipping back out because I wanted more width...no biggie.
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