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Old 08-19-2002, 04:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Improving Milemarker winch speed

I just got a Milemarker 9000# 2-speed, and a friend of mine told me the linespeed of his didn't improve with installing a bigger pump.

I haven't installed and tried it yet (still wrestling with 0.4'' thick 4'' by 8'' angle iron and same thickness U-profile) but i figure i have a plenty big enough pump, and i'm considering drilling the 2 steel washers between solenoid block and hydro-motor, and also considering drilling out the valve disc in the return port, or even omitting it.

Has anyone already tried this, or are these just stupid little ideas ?
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Old 08-19-2002, 04:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The line speed on those is allways going to be very very slow.
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Old 08-19-2002, 04:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah. I don't know if your tricks will improve the speed or not, but it won't ever be close to an electric. The Hydro winch's virtues lie elsewhere, and you might be better off not fawkin up your winch (or warranty) for little to no gain.
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Old 08-19-2002, 05:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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On a hydro winch the line speed is up to the pump GPM not pressure and the other restriction is what is the reduction in the planitary? The motor will only go so fast I would bet so even if you did get a pump with a high GPM it might not do much.
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Old 08-19-2002, 06:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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He is right...it is the rate of fluid transfer not the pressure of the transfer.

Also the other dude is right...it will never be as fast as an electric, it will out pull them though

anyway...just mount the thing and be happy that you have a winch!
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Old 08-19-2002, 07:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nothing wrong with their slow line speed. They'll outpull and pull longer than ANY electric winch on the market with a similar rating.

If someone could figure out a electric hydro pump runs off of 12V and fully powers the milemarker. I'de probably be all over it and ditch the 9500i.



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Old 08-20-2002, 07:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm putting in a faster pump (11 gPM, 1800 psi) onto my 2 milemarkers (1 front, 1 rear). I'm scrapping the electric solenoids that come with the standard MM install, and putting in manual ones with larger port sizes.

There is a theory that says the electric solenoids are the restriction to more GPM flowing through the system.

I should know how this works in practice in a few weeks.
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Old 08-26-2002, 01:34 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm not finished this project yet, but did some testing on Saturday.

I'm using a Cross Manufacturing oil pump, mouted to the gearbox on a dog clutch. It's rated to do 17.5 gpm at full whack (3600 rpm).

I plumbed it direct to the MM (no spool valve), and the return from the MM to an oil tank, and a pipe from the oil tank to the pump. 1/2 pipe all over except for the inlet pipe to the pump from the oil tank which was 3/4. Let her rip.


The winch I used was new, and just sitting on the ground with no cable. I measured it be couting revolutions. This was all dont with no load, so I'll check more accuratly when I can do this with a load on them.

Basically: with the pump rotating at 3000 prm (approx - no rev counter on my truck, so just going by ear) the MM was rotating in low gear at the same speed as a Ward 8274 (Yes, the fast one with the motor on top) with both winches running under no load.

With the MM in high gear, and the pump at about 900 rpm (tickover on the engine, 4th gear 1:1 ratio) the winch was spinning nearly too fast to count accuratly, but this time just faster than the 8274. I was afraid to rev up the engine.

Next Steps: Manufacture an oil resevoir for the truck, fit a manual spool value (have this now, 1/2" model, plan to fit it under the floor beside the gearbox and have the control levers come up through the floor beside the gear levers. I'll have 2 control levers, one for the front MM, one for the rear MM. I'll have a 3rd control lever for engaging / disengaging the dog clutch for the oil pump.

I'll do a performance test / comparison when I'm able to winch under load. I'm betting the MM will be faster under load than the 8274.

Oh yeah, we tested it beside a Superwinch Husky too. Bet it hands down.
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Old 08-26-2002, 10:54 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for the test results, Merv.

Mine isn't operational yet, though the winch bumper is functionally finished. Cosmetically, there still is some work to do. I've just reassembled the pump, as i had to change it from left to right hand rotating.

I did come up with some measurements, though. Like you, i discovered that the motor ports are 1/2" and that the valve, hoses and other connecting hardware are 1/4". I think 1/4" should be big enough, because the real bottleneck is this hexagon backpressure disc thingy, imho. When pulling, this disc moves toward the motor, somewhat opening the slot that MM filed or milled in it. Even then, this still is a major restriction. On lowering, it moves towards the valve, so the oil must go through the hole thats in it. This hole is only 1/16" or 1.6 mm. Considering that flowcapacity rises with the square of the diameter, i preventively drilled this hole to 4 mm. I can always go bigger, but must get this pump finished, and do some testing first.
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally posted by merv


With the MM in high gear, and the pump at about 900 rpm (tickover on the engine, 4th gear 1:1 ratio) the winch was spinning nearly too fast to count accuratly, but this time just faster than the 8274. I was afraid to rev up the engine.

One comment about your test. Spool RPM isn't a good comparision when comparing agains an 8274. In one revolution, the 8274 reels in more cable than a milemarker or other small spool winch.

It'sll be interesting to see the results of your test when you load them up and compare actual pulling distance.
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It'sll be interesting to see the results of your test when you load them up and compare actual pulling distance.
yeah me too
can you hook the MM up to the 8274 sto see if it will pull the drum off that POS warn
or at least time how long until the motor smokes
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Old 08-26-2002, 12:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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yeah me too
can you hook the MM up to the 8274 sto see if it will pull the drum off that POS warn
That's only possible on a bottom mount winch. On an 8274 you would have to take the entire winch plate and front of the frame along for the ride If you hokked them together like that, I suspect that you would burn the fluid up in the MM in the same amount of time it took to fry the motor on the 8274.

I think the milemarkers are a good winch, especially if you like playing in the water, but the speed has always been a problem (as the original poster is pointing out).
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Nuthin more to report on the speed scene, but the vehicle is now down with the garage that is making me some custom hoses to plumb it all up. I've put in the 2nd Milemarker between the chassis rails, about 9" in front of the rear cross member and I've fitted a twin lever spool valve (60lpm, 3000psi max, 1/2 fittings) btween the seats so I can control both winches while sitting in there (and grinning like an idiot while I do it). Managed to fit it outside the seat box, with just the levers coming into the drivers space.


I've gotten a 3 gallon (approc) tank made for the fluid, and that will sit in a rear wheel well. I'm going to try it without a cooler first (as a 1/2 cooler is not small and I'll have to smart finding somewhere to fit it).

Should be winching by early next week!

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Old 09-13-2002, 09:02 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Any updates yet? Merv? RDV?

Yesterday I got a package from Jeff Howe - 6 gpm pump, remote reservoir & filter, and I've already got the cooler and fittings. Partly this is for the ram that'll go in with the 60, but I want to know how you guys are doing with the hydro winches, too...
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Old 09-13-2002, 10:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Lloyd, I've just got my tank back. A close friend of mine, who is also a stainless steel miracle worker decided i needed something sturdier No test results yet. Maybe i'll be able to do some no-load testing this weekend, but definately some real world testing the weekend after that. Maybe i will have some pics ready one week after that because i still use a chemical photocamera I'll post again when i have something useful to say... I hope. ...
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Old 09-13-2002, 11:18 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Any idea how you are going to do your test? Fourwheeler (I think) was testing the HS9500i vs the 8724. They got a vehicle with each winch on it and spooled out an equal amount of cable. Then they set the brakes on both vehicles and let them winch towards each other. (that way the load was gaurenteed to be equal) The one that got it's cable in first was declared the winner. 8724 beat the HS9500i by a few feet. They also did the same test with a Warn 15000 and an 8724 doubled up with a snatch block. 8724 won that one too.
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Old 09-13-2002, 12:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
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wonder who would win the race if they were loaded up not just dragging the park brake
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Old 09-14-2002, 02:20 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Hi Guys....

I am doing something simular to this with a OX winch, wich is just a re-badged MM .

However I have succesfully mated a 4cyl sedan starter motor to a normal PS pump. This starter motor is a geared reduction one and and under bench tests draws close to 18amp spinning the 4cyl engine with no plugs in.

Now I hope to mount this high up under the hood of the Bronco and use this at times when the engine is not running.

I have worked a way of making a fitting in the original pump on the engine and plumbing this into the res on the top pump. so by filling the top pump I auto fill the bottom one too.

Now, according to guru's at our local power steer shop, I can simply plumb the 2 hi-press line together. As its not possible to make one pump force the other to turn, which ever pump is not spinning will "look" like a dead end.

What this gives me is both Hydro and Elec operation of the MM winch, it also will give me P/Steer operation even if the engine is not running.

Now I know starter motors are not rated for continuous use, but I dont see it being any worse than a elec motor on a warn winch...

Regards... Mike (Australia)
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Old 09-14-2002, 08:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Sounds like a sweet setup with the electric backup. Keep us updated.

I called MileMarker yesterday and had a nice long chat with one of their lead techs. Seems like the 75-series winches come with the 35-series solenoids, which are rated for 3.5 gpm max. However, the 70-series winches come with the 34-series valves, which are rated for 6 gpm. An exception is the 12000 lb. winches, which always come with the 34-series valves regardless of what their web site says. Of course the main factor determining winch speed is pump volume. So, if you're going to run a small pump, the winch will always be slow and it doesn't matter which one you get. If you're gonna run a pump up to 6 gpm get a 70-series winch with 34-series solenoids. If you want to run above 6 gpm you'll need to get your own valves, but the hydro motor will be quite happy at "any" flow rate - regardless of whether its a 70 or 75.

They only show specs at 3.5 gpm because it's consistent and simple.
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Old 09-14-2002, 09:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Lloyd
Seems like the 75-series winches come with the 35-series solenoids, which are rated for 3.5 gpm max. However, the 70-series winches come with the 34-series valves, which are rated for 6 gpm. An exception is the 12000 lb. winches, which always come with the 34-series valves regardless of what their web site says.
Well that sucks since pretty hard IMNSO. WTF do they thinkin?

Anyway the hyd motot on my friggin 75 series is from white hydraulics. IF it is the RS series "code 300" (that one seems to match the claimed specs) then the max GPM is listed at 20 continuous with a peak pressure of 1500.

http://www.whitehydraulics.com/catalog/rs.html

If the solenoid problem can be cured and a decent pump (or modified saginaw) can put out 7 - 10 GPM then the thing should haul ass. I plan to find out.
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Old 09-14-2002, 01:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Old 09-14-2002, 01:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 09-14-2002, 01:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Dunno too much about it. A guy runs it on his GWagen at the comps we do. Basically all I know is that its an 8274 that is hydraulically assisted. When the 8274 about reaches stall speed, the hydraulic motor kicks in to help out.
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Old 09-14-2002, 02:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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FWIW, once you get the basics sorted out, you may want to consider a servo (jet) valve to control it. It would give you a fine control over line speed. I have a lot of exp. with them on hydralic transmissions. Balls to the wall is great but I can see some advantages to easing into a obstical then applying the line speed to get you up and over. Less wear and tear to the components. Another option to eliminating a big jerk is to install a sequencing valve. It will allow a fast speed until a load is detected and then shift automaticaly to a different size port for a slower speed. Just some thoughts guys, as long as your playing may as well have some fun with it.
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Old 09-14-2002, 03:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Wouldn't it be easier to just use engine rpm to control the line speed with a belt driven pump?

tickover slow, high rpm fast. just like a PTO winch.

Ron
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