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Old 09-19-2002, 10:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Coilover debate...I know, not again.

After SEARCHING, I read alot of great articles on coilovers. Especially the "Body Roll - love it, hate it, make it go away!" thread. It seems kinda crazy to spend $2K on a set of coilovers, and then have to spend more money on sway bars to limit the travel at the end ranges.
Doesn't this mean the entire weight of the axle isn't on the ground, when the coil is stretched way out, if you have a sway bar lifting it some?
How is it the $2K coilovers are a better solution, then Beartrack's idea. Here:
http://www.safarigard.com/Droopkit.htm

Just trying to justify spending the $2K+ on coilovers.

Thanks Brian W
Hanford, CA
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Old 09-19-2002, 10:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
 
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FWIW as the starter of the aformentioned thread....

I love my coilovers. Currently I do not have swaybars and have managed to control a lot of body roll with coil over setup. Will I get a swaybar? Maybe this winter I'll look into it. Will it reduce travel? I think with 4 feet of travel I can afford to lose some *IF* it does reduce some.
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Old 09-19-2002, 10:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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ok i don't know how and when coilover started to mean lots of travel, because it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing about having the coil mounted over the shock that inherently increases travel. You can get the same amount of travel out of seperate coils and shocks. The advantages of coilovers are that they're easier to mount, and they're higher quality rebuildable shocks. THAT'S IT! People have increased body roll with coilovers because they have them extra soft.

-Steve
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Old 09-19-2002, 11:07 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Belly Dragger, why do you love your coilovers? Surely it wasn't because you spent over $2000 on them,

offroadr35, wow, to the point!
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Old 09-19-2002, 11:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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2 words - "limiting straps"
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Originally posted by elf_cruiser
2 words - "limiting straps"
would do limiting straps have to do with body roll on the street??

-Steve
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
would do limiting straps have to do with body roll on the street??
Nothing, I thought this was an offroad bulletin board...
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by elf_cruiser


Nothing, I thought this was an offroad bulletin board...
sorry, i just re-read the original post. i thought it was just a given that he'd be using limiting straps

-Steve
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
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no prob -

To be a little more helpful, what I'm planning on is 3 straps per axle. 1 in the center that will allow only a few inches of axle droop. This will keep the vehicle stable on really steep vertical stuff. Then limiting straps on either side parallel with the CO's to keep from bottoming out the shock. The side straps add a little stablility during articulation because when the strap tightens, the axle pulls down on that side. With rockells, this alone can keep you from going over. If you want less downtravel, you can easily swap in a shorter strap, instead of having to mess with swaybars, spring rates, CO mounts, etc. Just like a vehicle with very little flex is unstable and rolls easily, a vehicle with too much can be the same way, if the articulation is out of control. JMO
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by elf_cruiser
no prob -

To be a little more helpful, what I'm planning on is 3 straps per axle. 1 in the center that will allow only a few inches of axle droop. This will keep the vehicle stable on really steep vertical stuff. Then limiting straps on either side parallel with the CO's to keep from bottoming out the shock. The side straps add a little stablility during articulation because when the strap tightens, the axle pulls down on that side. With rockells, this alone can keep you from going over. If you want less downtravel, you can easily swap in a shorter strap, instead of having to mess with swaybars, spring rates, CO mounts, etc. Just like a vehicle with very little flex is unstable and rolls easily, a vehicle with too much can be the same way, if the articulation is out of control. JMO
I dont think he is wanting to use sway bars to keep the vehicle from a slow roll. I only see a need for a sway bar to get me to the trail at 45 plus mph. I am saying, if you use a short limit strap to counteract the body roll, it will hurt you on the trail.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by offroadr35
ok i don't know how and when coilover started to mean lots of travel, because it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing about having the coil mounted over the shock that inherently increases travel. You can get the same amount of travel out of seperate coils and shocks. The advantages of coilovers are that they're easier to mount, and they're higher quality rebuildable shocks. THAT'S IT! People have increased body roll with coilovers because they have them extra soft.

-Steve
YES! Although I don't think it is totally related to the soft spring rates(most people I know seem to be running super stiff rates trying to combat body roll). I think it stems more from the fact that when you put coilovers on you build a suspension with virtually no roll resistance. Look at a stock coil sprung Jeep(TJ For example)...all those rubber bushings in the control arms provide roll resistance which decrease body roll. Most guys use heims and therefore do away with any type of roll resistance, and expect the shock to make up for it...that isn't what a shock is supposed to do.

When you build things yourself you can fine tune it so that you get the "total package". Run the right spring rates for your vehicle and add some swaybars to combat body roll, that is what they are for.

CJ
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I dont think he is wanting to use sway bars to keep the vehicle from a slow roll. I only see a need for a sway bar to get me to the trail at 45 plus mph. I am saying, if you use a short limit strap to counteract the body roll, it will hurt you on the trail.
Sorry if that was how you interpreted my statement, 'cause that's not what i meant at all. I thought he was asking basically how to get more stability on the trail, and why everyone with CO's seems to have a lot of body roll on the trail. My statements are regarding trail use only. Obviously putting a limiting strap that only allows 2" of downtravel will limit body roll, but that would be stupid. My point is that when on the trail - a little body roll is normal, but too much can help you roll over, and limiting straps are one easy way to get a good balance, and limit your flex, IF you think you have too much flex...

Is that clearer?
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Old 09-19-2002, 01:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by offroadr35
ok i don't know how and when coilover started to mean lots of travel, because it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing about having the coil mounted over the shock that inherently increases travel. You can get the same amount of travel out of seperate coils and shocks. The advantages of coilovers are that they're easier to mount, and they're higher quality rebuildable shocks. THAT'S IT! People have increased body roll with coilovers because they have them extra soft.

-Steve
YES! Listen to what this guy is saying. You forgot that with coilovers, you can easily adjust ride height.
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Old 09-19-2002, 02:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I do believe that if you are going to run coilacers that you need to run swaybars so that you get the reverse pull thing happening as the axle approaches the end off its travel.

IMO running coilovers with out some mechanism to get reverse pull is the same as running buggy leafs or sissor shackles or wacky shackles or revolvers. Comparing coilovers to normal springs they are the same as having massive amounts of spring unseating as the axle droops away from the body with the spring unattached. In all these cases (including coilovers) the axle never pulls on the frame until the shock or limiting strap pulls the axle off the ground.

Wacky shackles and massive unconstrained falling out coil springs went out of fashion years ago in favour of springs that pushed and pulled on the axle (normal long leaf springs and fully attached coils) to give exactly the same amount of travel but a much better controlled setup. I carnt see that coilovers are any different.

IMO coilovers need swar bars.

What about the competition rigs that run coilovers, do many of them use swaybars??

Sam
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Old 09-19-2002, 05:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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LOL,
Here's my situation! I'm getting ready to build a rock buggy from scratch. I was planning on going with coilovers, with the linked suspension, but the more I think about it, the only thing I would gain from CO's over plain coil springs, is compactness.

Why spend so much money ($2K+) on coilovers, when you can buy all four coil springs for about a quarter of the price. Add some adjustable buckets for changing the ride height, and decent shocks. This would only run $1K, and replacement springs(different rate) would cost less then the coilover springs cost.

The regular coil springs could support the axle after 7-8" of extension, and no sway bar or limiting straps would be needed. Well , I like the idea of one in the middle.

What do you gain from CO's, that you can't get from regular coils and decent shocks?

Thanks Brian W
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Old 09-19-2002, 05:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingOf_Pain

What do you gain from CO's, that you can't get from regular coils and decent shocks?

Thanks Brian W
i thought i already answered that...

-Steve
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Old 09-19-2002, 06:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingOf_Pain
LOL,
Here's my situation! I'm getting ready to build a rock buggy from scratch. I was planning on going with coilovers, with the linked suspension, but the more I think about it, the only thing I would gain from CO's over plain coil springs, is compactness.

Why spend so much money ($2K+) on coilovers, when you can buy all four coil springs for about a quarter of the price. Add some adjustable buckets for changing the ride height, and decent shocks. This would only run $1K, and replacement springs(different rate) would cost less then the coilover springs cost.

The regular coil springs could support the axle after 7-8" of extension, and no sway bar or limiting straps would be needed. Well , I like the idea of one in the middle.

What do you gain from CO's, that you can't get from regular coils and decent shocks?

Thanks Brian W
you think like i do!! i would love to have a fully setup coil over suspension on the buggy i am getting ready to build but after alot of though i have decided to just stick with leaves! ha! my jeep just flat out works now and it has leaves. i am very pleased with how my jeep works now so i just could not justify the cost of coilovers over the leaves. also i feel leaves are more reliable. no links to bend or rod ends to wear out or break. i figureed up that if i went coil overs that it was going to cost me between $3k-$4k to build the suspension myself. i just ordered a set of 4 leaf packs (7leaf hd) for the front of a wagoneer for $400. this is what i will use on the buggy. they are cheap, reliable, and they work....they just are not as cool. oh well
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Old 09-19-2002, 07:17 PM   #18 (permalink)
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"i thought i already answered that...
-Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I just have a hard (no pun intended) time concentrating on your post, with that Avatar next to it.

If I can find a good deal on some CO's, I will probably go that route. If not, no biggie. I will just go coils and 7100 Bilsteins.

Thanks guys!
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