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Old 12-07-2009, 08:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Why ORI struts vs coilovers?

I am noticing a lot of people are starting to run the ORI Struts on their rigs. Why are people going this way vs the standard coilover or airshock?

Thanks
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Have you read these threads?

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...&highlight=ori

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...&highlight=ori
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Stability, ease of adjustment and end cost for all things involved.
Packaging also plays here
Can you get a perfectly stable and supple ride with C/O's? Probably but not a great chance of hitting it on the first shot. Now buy more springs and put a sway bar on.
Can you make a coil over go into hard enough rates to minimize bottoming and get away with no air bump? Probably with a slider stop and a pretty high rated lower spring, and poly's on the shaft.

The ORI is takes care of the stability while still soft in the rates. It also takes care of a lot of the bottoming you would ever experience. Are they the ticket if you want to run all desert. No. Tim from Bent did a good job in the POB thread. For about 90% of trail wheelers (and xrra type racers) they are the best choice for packaging, cost and tuneability. They aren't meant to replace a coil over and bypass. They are great for what they are meant for, all around crawling and wheeling, with high speed stuff mixed in and jumping. In the big whoops you need them to drop out quickly and the lower pressure (that makes them stable) fights drop out. The rebound valving has just had another tweak and they are better again than they were at this, but this is only really relevant in the whoops at REAL speed.
Again, most of you aren't racing Baja. Will they do well in KOH? Richard Gauthier proved twice that they do. We also ran them and were satisfied. Are them meant for that, not as much as a set of c/o's and bypasses, but they both take tuning. These are just crazy easy to tune, pretty much all on the car and with no added expense.
Go to tune a coil over and you have them off the rig and you're spending money on valving and coils.
I don't feel they will ever replace coil overs as they are so versatile, but I do feel that for the guy that can afford coil overs and wants to go out and beat on his junk without months of tuning, they are the best ticket.
The bumpstops actually work very well. On our xrra/KOH car I can take it out and jump it several feet in the air and only hear the clank of the stroke limiter on landing, you don't feel a bottom. In the desert, there were a few times where we wanted bumps on the rear from some really big G outs after a whoops section. Again, they weren't designed with this in mind.
If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask me and I'll do my best to answer, or can most likely go get the answer.
Kelly
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksheep10 View Post
Stability, ease of adjustment and end cost for all things involved.
Packaging also plays here
Can you get a perfectly stable and supple ride with C/O's? Probably but not a great chance of hitting it on the first shot. Now buy more springs and put a sway bar on.
Can you make a coil over go into hard enough rates to minimize bottoming and get away with no air bump? Probably with a slider stop and a pretty high rated lower spring, and poly's on the shaft.

The ORI is takes care of the stability while still soft in the rates. It also takes care of a lot of the bottoming you would ever experience. Are they the ticket if you want to run all desert. No. Tim from Bent did a good job in the POB thread. For about 90% of trail wheelers (and xrra type racers) they are the best choice for packaging, cost and tuneability. They aren't meant to replace a coil over and bypass. They are great for what they are meant for, all around crawling and wheeling, with high speed stuff mixed in and jumping. In the big whoops you need them to drop out quickly and the lower pressure (that makes them stable) fights drop out. The rebound valving has just had another tweak and they are better again than they were at this, but this is only really relevant in the whoops at REAL speed.
Again, most of you aren't racing Baja. Will they do well in KOH? Richard Gauthier proved twice that they do. We also ran them and were satisfied. Are them meant for that, not as much as a set of c/o's and bypasses, but they both take tuning. These are just crazy easy to tune, pretty much all on the car and with no added expense.
Go to tune a coil over and you have them off the rig and you're spending money on valving and coils.
I don't feel they will ever replace coil overs as they are so versatile, but I do feel that for the guy that can afford coil overs and wants to go out and beat on his junk without months of tuning, they are the best ticket.
The bumpstops actually work very well. On our xrra/KOH car I can take it out and jump it several feet in the air and only hear the clank of the stroke limiter on landing, you don't feel a bottom. In the desert, there were a few times where we wanted bumps on the rear from some really big G outs after a whoops section. Again, they weren't designed with this in mind.
If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask me and I'll do my best to answer, or can most likely go get the answer.
Kelly
I hope you don't mind aswering more questions here!

Can you explain the differences a little more between the DP3 and ST strut?

Where can we find pricing information, just call you?

How do you feel about using it on heavier vehicles. It looks like 1300lb a corner is what it says on the website, but do you agree? The reason for the question is that airshocks say they are good to a cirtain weight, but my experience with them is that they start to really struggle way before you reach the max weight.

Can you, or would you ever run coilovers and Ori's? Meaning coilovers on the front and ori's on the back? Do they operate well together?

Do you have fully compressed demensions available anywhere?

Sorry for all the questions, if you don't want to go into it here I can call you too.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Do you have fully compressed demensions available anywhere?
Full Extension - Stroke = Fully Compressed?
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
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http://www.oristruts.com/ststrut.html
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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this too: http://www.oristruts.com/PDF%27s/Certified-ST-14.pdf
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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After watching them perform at Farmington, I would run them were I to build a new buggy.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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After watching them perform at Farmington, I would run them were I to build a new buggy.
That right there says alot.


Here is the post from Tim @ Bent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bent Fabrications View Post
That is an excellent question to address.

First off, I'm not going to feed you a line of BS because I'm a vendor for ORI trying to sell them. The following is based on my personal experience in tuning shocks and studying suspension. Each type of shock has it's place pending on what your wanting out of your rig... and the ORI's definitely have some cool features that make them the perfect choice for many people.

If someone were to call me wanting a trail rig that rode ultra smooth and stable, a set of ST's would be the first thing I'd recommend. The stability when set up anywhere close to right is awesome, not to mention how smooth they ride. The fact that they are slightly cheaper than a coil over (with springs) helps on budget, especially in the long run of not having multiple sets of extra springs around to help dial the C/O in. Not to mention the expense or packaging around no need for bump stops or sway bars. The average person out there is putting a C/O on there rig with out any tuning on the valving and for the most part guessing on the springs, not seeing anywhere close to the potential the shocks have to offer. Then we read them bitching on here that their "air shock" was better...IMO these offer the average person much more tuning ability without adding that extra cost of buying new springs to experiment with while trying to achieve the ride they are after. Nothing more than a NO2 tank and a gage set up will let you play with the ride quality to your harts content. When the shock is set up according to Marks recommendations, it will not unload like a standard air shock and inspire confidence when off-cambering super nasty ledges... not to mention seemingly float across even the nastiest rocky trails. They inspire you to want to go fast. Making them a perfect choice for the average weekend warrior. Are they as good as a tuned coilover in ride quality... very close.

The fact that they inspire you to go fast does not make them my choice for doing so though. Part of being able to go really fast is a shocks ability to drop out quickly in rebound dampening. Can the ORI's be tuned to do so, absolutely... but when you drop that lower chamber pressure to tune for faster rebound you loose many of the advantages the shock offers in stability, and unloading comes back into play. Essentially back to an expensive air shock, which brings up another point. Not that these are blowing out as they have triple seals, but the idea that they can depressurize be it a seal or shrader will leave you in a bad situation in a race, especially a long one.

For me, it all comes down to what your primary purpose is going to be. I'm not going to say these are the right choice for everything, but for 90% or so of you out there in buggies hitting the woods up every weekend... A set of ORI's would be on your build sheet if you came to me.

-Tim

I've been running ORI ST's for a year and a half. 1st year mostly competition, last 6 months mainly rec. wheeling. I appreciate Mark @ ORI and Kelly "Blacksheep10" @ Vertical Limits for all the tech & support, the patience and the ramping of the learning curve. Mark for the teardowns and upgrades. Both have been amazing to work with. At the time I went to ORI's there was only a handful out there and only two cars in competition running them. Dave Smith "GC Five-O", and Rick Dermo "zukster". So it was definately a huge leap of faith for me in a new product like these and mid-XRRA season. But they blew me away and still do. My buggy was floppy jalopy on 2" Racerunner Airshocks, I had airbumps, and sway-bar. I cut all of that off and the car is infinately more stable, and tuneable.

ORI's have their place, luckily its a BIG place. They will never be awesome in the desert for GO-FAST, they just do not rebound fast enough to keep up in the whoops. So they will never replace a C/O and bypass in that application. But for most of us who only play go fast a couple times a year for the dollars, and EASE of setup, and tune you cant beat them from a Cost and Performance standpoint.

Cost benefits over C/O or Airshock-
No need for Airbumps
No need for Swaybar
Replaces need for costly additional springs for tuning C/O

Performance
With a bottle of nitrogen and a regulator you can tune them to your hearts content. I have two tunes for mine. Crawler pressures, and Go-Fast pressures. I can go from Crawler to Go-Fast in under 5 minutes, going the other way is about 15 minutes.
No unpredictable push-off or Unloading.
Much more stable in highly offcamber situations.


Just my $0.02 after putting hundreds of miles on mine and beating it like it owed me a turkey samawich.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I just sold mine and went to CO's. My rig is very heavy on the front for a racer and I was bottoming them and losing tires/wheels in ludicris stuff. They are a great product for the money but I was overdriving them on occasion ... I would run them on a crawler any day of the week. They are great for faster stuff as well, as long as you are fairly light. They are much more stable than an airshock but the bottoming capabilities/tuning could use a little more.....
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
I hope you don't mind aswering more questions here!

Can you explain the differences a little more between the DP3 and ST strut?

Where can we find pricing information, just call you?

How do you feel about using it on heavier vehicles. It looks like 1300lb a corner is what it says on the website, but do you agree? The reason for the question is that airshocks say they are good to a cirtain weight, but my experience with them is that they start to really struggle way before you reach the max weight.

Can you, or would you ever run coilovers and Ori's? Meaning coilovers on the front and ori's on the back? Do they operate well together?

Do you have fully compressed demensions available anywhere?

Sorry for all the questions, if you don't want to go into it here I can call you too.
DP3 and ST. The DP3 to start with, is almost $285 more per corner. They are way bigger, have way more going on inside, but just quickly lets say most of it is valving. As the strut senses it is on the low side it goes into harsher valving, meaning it closes half of the compression valving ports on that side to add more stability. Also there is externally adjustable valving on the rebound (as does the ST) AND the compression. I have never put hands on a set of these.

Pricing, yes, just PM me here or call if you want to talk, although I'm not always at the phone. I will call you back though

Weights. I wish I had more experience in this arena. I've set up several sets, and sold LOTS of sets. many of them have been on bigger, heavier rigs. Nobody has called me and complained that they wouldn't handle the weight. I haven't experienced it or been told of it until Lou's quote right below this text

Mixing with C/O's or airs, yes, lots of guys do it. Most guys can't drop that kind of money for all 4 so they put 2 on, normally on the front. It adds stability at that end.

For easy figuring, 14's are 21" compressed,
16's are 23" compressed, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by broncolou View Post
I just sold mine and went to CO's. My rig is very heavy on the front for a racer and I was bottoming them and losing tires/wheels in ludicris stuff. They are a great product for the money but I was overdriving them on occasion ... I would run them on a crawler any day of the week. They are great for faster stuff as well, as long as you are fairly light. They are much more stable than an airshock but the bottoming capabilities/tuning could use a little more.....
Lou, you're getting into the go fast long distance stuff, yes? We just ran ours (granted, an upper 3xxx lb car) for lots and lots of miles at ludicrous speed in disney on the granite and had no problems.
I have to know what you mean by "bottoming them and losing tires/wheels in ludicris stuff." did you need a supplemental air bump or stiffer compression valving in the front? Stiffening up the compression valving can be done, but you disassemble it and block off however many of the compression valving ports in the upper cap you need to to get the desired rate. A lot of work if playing with pressures doesn't work (never hasn't worked for us)
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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A few pics of the DP3's that just came in on Friday.

They are noticeably bigger (bigger than a 2.5 C/O with springs) in diameter.





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Old 12-08-2009, 03:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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For about 90% of trail wheelers
too bad most trail wheels can't afford them.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yes long distance mixed high/low speed. A supplemental bump would have helped but I needed more compression and wasn't interested in disassembling these. I was running solid 3" poly bumps with 1" of bump compressing travel and it was not enough coupled with the factory hydro bump circuit. I was concerned hitting anything over 6" tall with an edge @ speed (15mph+). They are a great product just not for me

My rig is 2400# to the ground, on the front tires.
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I sifted through the other couple ORI threads but didn't find much on the topic: how would these ORI struts(DP3 or ST) compare to coilovers on a daily driver?

A lot of reading through older threads show most people staying away from airshocks on daily drivers because if the shaft gets nicked at all, you're sitting on your bumpstop.

With the ORIs functioning as the bump stock, spring, and shock with no need for a swaybar would really help clean up the brackets on my front end.

Is a limiting strap still needed/advised when these are installed?
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Yes long distance mixed high/low speed. A supplemental bump would have helped but I needed more compression and wasn't interested in disassembling these. I was running solid 3" poly bumps with 1" of bump compressing travel and it was not enough coupled with the factory hydro bump circuit. I was concerned hitting anything over 6" tall with an edge @ speed (15mph+). They are a great product just not for me

My rig is 2400# to the ground, on the front tires.
Dang, I wish they would have worked out for you. Mark needs to make upper caps with teh option of adjustable compression damping for a few dollars more, huh.
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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For those wondering about them on heavier rigs. I have a custom built scrambler running 2 steering rockwells and 44's. My rigs weighs 5500lbs full.
I have zero complaints on my ORIs, ST's, handling my rig. If anything I often wonder that I have mine to STIFF. Realize the 1300 lb rating is for 1300 lbs of SPRUNG weight per corner.. How many people run vehicles that have 5000 pounds of sprung weight? Very, very few.
Also, I DO NOT RUN ANY SWAY BAR. I have no need for it. If someone is telling you they need a sway bar with these I would suggest they have them set-up wrong or have a vehicle that is 7000 lbs or more with a TON of unsprung weight or very very tall.
I have had mine for a year beating on them in Tennessee. They work as advertised. Period.
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Old 12-09-2009, 09:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I just sold mine and went to CO's. My rig is very heavy on the front for a racer and I was bottoming them and losing tires/wheels in ludicris stuff. They are a great product for the money but I was overdriving them on occasion ... I would run them on a crawler any day of the week. They are great for faster stuff as well, as long as you are fairly light. They are much more stable than an airshock but the bottoming capabilities/tuning could use a little more.....
Heavier viscosity oil for the compression damping will fix that.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:17 AM   #20 (permalink)
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My buggy is a cut down XJ, with the motor in the stock location. Even with the axle pushed out 4-5" I still have the front of that heavy 6 cyl in front of the axle, so my front weight is more than most buggies. The ST's handle that weight, even on hard hits and jumps. Like has been said in this thread, it is VERY easy to tune these shocks to perform extremely well for 90% of who will run them, without ever removing them from the vehicle. It is important that you know the intended ride height when you order them, as there is a bypass zone in the middle that you want to be sure to use. You can still change ride height for various situations, but there is a sweet spot in the middle that you want to take advantage of.

For the last 10% of us who really want or need to tune them for the maximum performance, it can take some time playing with them, and we're still learning. Valving can be adjusted through different oil viscosity, and the range of rebound valving adjustment can be changed. There is a screw at the bottom of the shaft to adjust rebound valving, and the range of valving that can be adjusted with that screw can be moved up and down in the total available range of valving.....the whole range can be made softer or stiffer. It has been a challenge to get the rears to drop out fast enough in the fast whoops, and yet still have enough spring rate/valving to keep from bottoming. But, mine are working pretty good and as fast as some pretty well set up rigs in the whoops. And, there is still a lot left that I can do to tune them more if I want to......we're still learning.

I know guys running them on street driven TJ's, who run rocks and sand, and they spank all the other TJ's. For a trail rig or trail buggy, there is nothing as good as the ORI's, and when you conisder a triple rate C/O the cost is the same, and you potentially save on air bumps and sway bars.
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Thanks to NAXJA, Falken Tire, Ten Factory, Brown Dog, Hooker Harness, Raceline Wheels, G&G Auto Repair, WARN, Yukon Gear and Axle, [COLOR="Red", Full Traction, Viking Winchline, Black Magic Brakes

Last edited by Goatman; 12-11-2009 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:23 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Richard, I was hoping you'd chime in. I talked to you briefly at KOH about them, and as far as tuning and testing, you're one of maybe 2 or 3 guys that have played with them that much. Thanks for your input.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:50 AM   #22 (permalink)
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My buggy is a cut down XJ, with the motor in the stock location. Even with the axle pushed out 4-5" I still have the front of that heavy 6 cyl in front of the axle, so my front weight is more than most buggies. The ST's handle that weight, even on hard hits and jumps. Like has been said in this thread, it is VERY easy to tune these shocks to perform extremely well for 90% of who will run them, without ever removing them from the vehicle. It is important that you know the intended ride height when you order them, as there is a bypass zone in the middle that you want to be sure to use. You can still change ride height for various situations, but there is a sweet spot in the middle that you want to take advantage of.

For the last 10% of us who really want or need to tune them for the maximum performance, it can take some time playing with them, and we're still learning. Valving can be adjusted through different oil viscosity, and the range of rebound valving adjustment can be changed. There is a screw at the bottom of the shaft to adjust rebound valving, and the range of valving that can be adjusted with that screw can be moved up and down in the total available range of valving.....the whole range can be made softer or stiffer. It has been a challenge to get the rears to drop out fast enough in the fast whoops, and yet still have enough spring rate/valving to keep from bottoming. But, mine are working pretty good and as fast as some pretty well set up rigs in the whoops. And, there is still a lot left that I can do to tune them more if I want to......we're still learning.

I know guys running them on street driven TJ's, who run rocks and sand, and they spank all the other TJ's. For a trail rig or trail buggy, there is nothing as good as the ORI's, and when you conisder a triple weight C/O the cost is the same, and you potentially save on air bumps and sway bars.
Thanks for the info. Thats what I needed. I think I am going to pull the trigger on these. Cheers
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info. Thats what I needed. I think I am going to pull the trigger on these. Cheers
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:49 AM   #24 (permalink)
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too bad most trail wheels can't afford them.

x2 heard these are around $1100 a pair....but damn nice
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:11 PM   #25 (permalink)
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How much are a good set of co's? A pair is easily $700 shipped. Then add coils dual or tripple rate kits. More springs, cause the first weren't quite right. Then add good bumps and cans and you are well past another $200. Plus add in sway bar for about $400. Price is very ballpark.
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