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Old 09-01-2016, 06:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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calculate a header size for a patio

I have no idea how to calc the needed size. I just dont want it to bow or collapse one day when I am sitting outside with a group of kids and nuns and Hillary them all.

Making patio cover where there is none. Will be about 21 wide and about 16 ' from house. Going to cut back stucco and attach to top plate on the house side.

Header would be about 23' long with, I am thinking 3-4 posts probably 4x6 but have to check into that as well.

For an idea of weight I am thinking.........

Rafters will be 2x12 (18"OC) I think with 1"T&G pine for the underside (on top of the 2x12)and I think I may have to go over the top of the T&G with some OSB so I dont have nail blowout on the bottomside. Double papered for the lack of slope and them comp shingles

What sized header would I need for something like that to be safe?

I think that I could physically make a couple 4x12 headers join up nicely with some lap joints overlapping 18" or so and then bolt them together but I am not a rough construction guy so I dont know if that is asking for a terrible death one day. A glulam I guess and trim it out to match the rest of the Doug Fir so it stains out the same.

Any engineers, architects? Whats a safe method for a header 23' long?
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Old 09-01-2016, 06:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You mention posts, are these supporting the header?

What are you proposing for post spacing?
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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9-1/2" lvl with a 4x4 in the middle, double it up if you want beef. 2x10 rafters. Wrap with decrotive as needed. Your biggest concern will be wind loads
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes, header would support the outside edge of the patio. I am thinking 3 or 4. Rather do 3 for less clutter. Was thinking 4x6 posts. With 3, that would leave about 6' spacing
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Yes, header would support the outside edge of the patio. I am thinking 3 or 4. Rather do 3 for less clutter. Was thinking 4x6 posts. With 3, that would leave about 6' spacing

If your only having a 6' spacing ill bet a 2x4 would hold (im not saying this is what you should use.)

Id go for a larger span with only 1post in the middle at the most iand put something like a 4x12 in for a header.

Im no engineer but my eyeball/ that looks about right calculations usually work out pretty good.

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Old 09-01-2016, 07:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Non architect drawing!

How wide can that center span be? Of course, I can bring the posts inset more to close that center span
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I know it's a little crazy, but why not go to the local library, and look up the span tables in the building code?
Build to code, or better, and cover your happy California ass from being sued.
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I know it's a little crazy, but why not go to the local library, and look up the span tables in the building code?
Build to code, or better, and cover your happy California ass from being sued.
What the fuck would the internet be for if I went to library and looked it up myself?

Library people are barely above dollar store people anyways.
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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What the fuck would the internet be for if I went to library and looked it up myself?

Library people are barely above dollar store people anyways.


1-porn.
2-you mean users or employees?

I don't know if you have a Cali building code, or a local one, but if you know any contractors they should be able to help you out.

What you need is @Screwzer!
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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1-porn.
2-you mean users or employees?

I don't know if you have a Cali building code, or a local one, but if you know any contractors they should be able to help you out.

What you need is @Screwzer!
He'll shit up the thread being a douche by saying he needs paid or belittling others as he's been to shows doing this. I'll bet @rugger can help and not be a assholio.
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Are California code books patented like a factory repair manual.

Looking online and not seeing much. At least that i understand. Some of this shit is like lawyer speak
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I had a similar span (16') and used 2 x 2x12. I sandwiched one on each side of the 6x6 support posts. Code called for a larger/thicker board for that span but I did the work myself and just used 2 x 2x12. I have since moved but while I was there it never bowed in the three years I was there. I didn't have to worry about any snow load though.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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On the roof I built over my moms deck was the same size as OP. I used two treated 2x12's with 1/2" treated plywood sammished in between. That's held up with five 4x4 cedar post. The header I wrapped in 3/4" rough cut cedar also. Now there was a 2' over hang on both sides as well as past the header. This helped with rain and sunshine.

It's been up since the early 90's and been through countless winters and bad storms no issues at all. It's all tied together with galvanized brackets and plates.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I had a similar span (16') and used 2 x 2x12. I sandwiched one on each side of the 6x6 support posts. Code called for a larger/thicker board for that span but I did the work myself and just used 2 x 2x12. I have since moved but while I was there it never bowed in the three years I was there. I didn't have to worry about any snow load though.
No snow here.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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He'll shit up the thread being a douche by saying he needs paid or belittling others as he's been to shows doing this. I'll bet @rugger can help and not be a assholio.
Daddytall is the one tob listen to. He does this stuff in his sleep.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The roof on my moms deck I made the rake uppers out of 2x12's that were 20' long if memory surves me right, then capped with plywood and rolled shingle. Under side was 2x8's 16' long holding up the ceiling which I used luan paneling that I polyurethane coated. Then strips of thin wood covering seams. Tossed ups couple outdoor ceiling fans and called it good. We did insulate above that and that helped reduce heat buildup big time plus vents on each end to allow breathing above ceiling.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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After talking with my friend of a friend (ya-ya i know), going to change the plan a bit. He does design houses for a living so he knows what he is talking about.......I hope

Patio will be 20 wide and come off the top plate 15-16ft off the the house to the header and then overhang a couple feet. Undetermined if I will add a fascia board at the end or leave it open

Rafters will be 4x8. 12 of them in total at 48" OC give or take an inch or so I want a beefy look and less rafters than a bunch of 2x rafters

Header will be a 5 1/4 x 13 1/2 x 24' GLM @3500' camber

Support posts will be 6 x 6. 2 posts inset from the ends for a max 16' span between posts

1x6 T&G Pine will be the ceiling on TOP of the 4x8 rafters so they will be seen, so I think that I am going to have to cover the top with OSB as well so I have the material depth to hold nails. Otherwise the 1" nail (rather use 1 1/4) will drive through the pine, even with double paper for the lack of slope, and the comp shingles.

I would much rather not have to layer the top with OSB ($$) but I cannot think of another solution. I could use staples for the shingles but after reading some internet posts, they may be suspect to keep the shingles down, and possibly against code.

Since the roof will almost be flat, could I get away with a 3/4 nail to go through the shingle, double paper, and into the pine enough to avoid disaster. Of course, I could use some longer 1 1/4 nails when I am nailing into the pine with a rafter below. Seems like its acceptable from some roofing forums I have been cruising.

No snow, no real strong winds. Looks like the average speed here is about 9-10 MPH in the summer, which is the windiest.
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Old 09-14-2016, 12:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Get 2'' T&G pine instead of 1''.
Prolley cheaper in the long run, by the time you figure materials and installation.
2"T&G will be much better spanning 48" also.

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Old 09-17-2016, 11:48 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Get 2'' T&G pine instead of 1''.
Prolley cheaper in the long run, by the time you figure materials and installation.
2"T&G will be much better spanning 48" also.
Yes, this is exactly what I am going to do. The cost isn't that much more and cheaper than lining the top with OSB

New question.....

I am going to core some 12" hole in my existing slab for new footings with the tube shaped forms. I have a core rig my sister borrowed from her work but I am unsure on how far I need to stay off the edge of the existing slab to avoid a shit ton of cracking of the existing slab.

Quick photoshop of ABOUT where the holes will be cored. As you can see, right in the wrong fucking place to avoid an edge. I have some latitude on moving them around a bit but would like to stay at least 12" from the joint, in either direction

If it matters that slab on the right of the joint is original to the house. About 30 years old. To the left was poured about 13 years ago.
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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9-1/2" lvl with a 4x4 in the middle, double it up if you want beef. 2x10 rafters. Wrap with decrotive as needed. Your biggest concern will be wind loads
Yep, this. Use an LVL. Those things are incredibly stiff, strong, and engineered to have equal strength throughout the material without crack and knots. They are also very stable and not prone to twisting, checking, or splitting due to the cross lamination layup and pressure gluing.

The rest is pretty basic. Use Simpson hangers and Strong-Drive screws to tie everything together.

https://www.strongtie.com/strongdriv...onnector-screw

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Old 09-17-2016, 03:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I am going to core some 12" hole in my existing slab for new footings with the tube shaped forms. I have a core rig my sister borrowed from her work but I am unsure on how far I need to stay off the edge of the existing slab to avoid a shit ton of cracking of the existing slab.

Quick photoshop of ABOUT where the holes will be cored. As you can see, right in the wrong fucking place to avoid an edge. I have some latitude on moving them around a bit but would like to stay at least 12" from the joint, in either direction

If it matters that slab on the right of the joint is original to the house. About 30 years old. To the left was poured about 13 years ago.
Why?
To meet code?
Wind that bad, so you're concerned about anchoring?
You're an overkill kinda guy? BTW, Nothing wrong with that.

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Old 09-17-2016, 03:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Yep, this. Use an LVL. Those things are incredibly stiff, strong, and engineered to have equal strength throughout the material without crack and knots. They are also very stable and not prone to twisting, checking, or splitting due to the cross lamination layup and pressure gluing.

The rest is pretty basic. Use Simpson hangers and Strong-Drive screws to tie everything together.

https://www.strongtie.com/strongdriv...onnector-screw

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Only problem is they don't like to be outdoors.

What the OP is looking for is prescriptive code requirements for patio covers.

Here's a good summary:

http://www.riversideca.gov/building/...rd-drawing.pdf

For 16' joists, they should be 4x8 @ 48" O.C. as OP replied. Header can be 4x8 as well, with posts at 10' O.C. Posts can be 4x4, if under 10'.

Instead of core drilling the patio, I'd screw down a Simpson Post Base with a 1" standoff and be done with it. I doubt there's enuf weight to crack the slab.



Code wants you to use pressure treated for outdoors now....

Just sayin'.
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Old 09-17-2016, 04:47 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Why?
To meet code?
Wind that bad, so you're concerned about anchoring?
You're an overkill kinda guy? BTW, Nothing wrong with that.
Yes, I am an overkill kind of person I guess and code wants 12x12x12 footers, even if there is an existing pad. I have access to the corer for free so its not that much work

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Only problem is they don't like to be outdoors.

What the OP is looking for is prescriptive code requirements for patio covers.

Here's a good summary:

http://www.riversideca.gov/building/...rd-drawing.pdf

For 16' joists, they should be 4x8 @ 48" O.C. as OP replied. Header can be 4x8 as well, with posts at 10' O.C. Posts can be 4x4, if under 10'.

Instead of core drilling the patio, I'd screw down a Simpson Post Base with a 1" standoff and be done with it. I doubt there's enuf weight to crack the slab.



Code wants you to use pressure treated for outdoors now....

Just sayin'.
They dont specify PT lumber so I am not going that. I will use#2 Doug Fir and stain/seal it with some deck seal. Looking for a quality one by the way.

Those are the exact base plates I am planning to use I think. I am going with the adjustable ones in case my measurements are off a bit, which they probaly will be. Pain in the ass to find a 20x18' square and exact locations for bases

Holes are already cored so its a moot point now. Where the fuck were you a couple hours ago? Na, I would have done it anyways.

Using a 5.25 x 13.5 GLB with 6 4x8 rafters @ 48OC and then line the top with the 2x pine (stained and sealed.....fun!! )
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Yes, I am an overkill kind of person I guess and code wants 12x12x12 footers, even if there is an existing pad. I have access to the corer for free so its not that much work



They dont specify PT lumber so I am not going that. I will use#2 Doug Fir and stain/seal it with some deck seal. Looking for a quality one by the way.

Those are the exact base plates I am planning to use I think. I am going with the adjustable ones in case my measurements are off a bit, which they probaly will be. Pain in the ass to find a 20x18' square and exact locations for bases

Holes are already cored so its a moot point now. Where the fuck were you a couple hours ago? Na, I would have done it anyways.

Using a 5.25 x 13.5 GLB with 6 4x8 rafters @ 48OC and then line the top with the 2x pine (stained and sealed.....fun!! )
Good move on not using PT lumber.

Other than for sill plates under load or fence posts, all other applications that I've used PT lumber, it has warped and cracked big time....
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Good move on not using PT lumber.

Other than for sill plates under load or fence posts, all other applications that I've used PT lumber, it has warped and cracked big time....
It's somewhat tricky to work with. The key to success with it is use the material quickly and let it dry in place. When you finish for the day, stack the pile nice and tight and keep it covered. If it drys out unframed, it will warp like an SOB. Nailed in place, it'll only warp like a spoiled child.
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