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Old 03-26-2017, 11:53 AM   #176 (permalink)
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I disagree.



The insurance make was failing before O-Care came along. Premiums were rising and pre-existings kept folks from getting or affording insurance.



I don't think returning to laissez faire policies will do much.


Who told you this? Do you sell insurance or work directly with health insurance to know it was failing?!? Cause I can certainly tell you as a health insurance agent for going on 10yrs, it wasn't failing. It wasn't perfect, far from it, but it was better off than it is now. Those types of comments are generalized bullshit spewed by media and people who have ZERO clue on the industry. You sound like these politicians that are trying to reform health care but have zero fuckin clue about it.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:56 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Who told you this? Do you sell insurance or work directly with health insurance to know it was failing?!? Cause I can certainly tell you as a health insurance agent for going on 10yrs, it wasn't failing. It wasn't perfect, far from it, but it was better off than it is now. Those types of comments are generalized bullshit spewed by media and people who have ZERO clue on the industry. You sound like these politicians that are trying to reform health care but have zero fuckin clue about it.
I know I couldn't get it.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:03 PM   #178 (permalink)
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I know I couldn't get it.


So that means insurance was failing? Insurance is failing now cause of people with pre existings. We need to create a market specifically for those with pre existings. Medicaid should be cut back drastically so we can expand Medicare for those who are sick and over 45. Then create a pool for those who can't qualify under 45 and that is the only part the govt should touch and subsidize. There's no way to insure pre existings, have insurance companies remain open and not have everyone pay mortgage rates for insurance. Our politicians are to dumb and have their hands tied due to special interests to get shit done. The ACA was not and is not the answer.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:12 PM   #179 (permalink)
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So that means insurance was failing? Insurance is failing now cause of people with pre existings. We need to create a market specifically for those with pre existings. Medicaid should be cut back drastically so we can expand Medicare for those who are sick and over 45. Then create a pool for those who can't qualify under 45 and that is the only part the govt should touch and subsidize. There's no way to insure pre existings, have insurance companies remain open and not have everyone pay mortgage rates for insurance. Our politicians are to dumb and have their hands tied due to special interests to get shit done. The ACA was not and is not the answer.
^So, you admit it too.

I don't disagree with your conclusions, however.

Of course the insurance market would be healthy, if they just got rid of the sick people.


You could probably get auto insurance for $20 a month too, if you didn't drive.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:16 PM   #180 (permalink)
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It's failing now, that's a key part of my statement. And my view of failing and yours is two completely different things. Clearly
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Old 03-26-2017, 02:03 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Want to fix it put Congress and the Senate on Obamacare for 2 years, they will figure out real quick how bad it sucks.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:07 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
pre-existings kept folks from getting or affording insurance.
Why should pre existing conditions be covered by health INSURANCE, but not other types of insurance? It's not fair that I have to keep my cars insured if I want to be covered for an accident. Why can't I wait untill I've hit a busload of people and actually need coverage to buy it? It's pointless to pay $50 a month for coverage when I haven't actually caused an accident I need to be covered for yet...
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:17 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Want to fix it put Congress and the Senate on Obamacare for 2 years, they will figure out real quick how bad it sucks.
I'm with you.

Really sticks in my craw the cadillac plans they get, yet they determine the shitshow that is Obamacare is good enough for those that pay their salary.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:49 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:59 AM   #185 (permalink)
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Why should pre existing conditions be covered by health INSURANCE, but not other types of insurance? It's not fair that I have to keep my cars insured if I want to be covered for an accident. Why can't I wait untill I've hit a busload of people and actually need coverage to buy it? It's pointless to pay $50 a month for coverage when I haven't actually caused an accident I need to be covered for yet...
when that argument is made, crazy back peddling happens.

I've yet to hear a valid rebuttal.

What if there was no health insurance? Each person saved some money for health care, if that is what they wanted to do, and then when they got sick or needed medicine, they paid for it. Costs would fall in line with what the market could bare. Like most other things, if you couldn't afford the total bill, you get a payment plan, credit card, borrow from the bank or friends and family, or go broke. Life isn't fair and financial pain comes from all sources. Not perfect, obviously, but we spend billions of dollars a year and are nowhere near perfect. Those billions of dollars spent on lobbying, arguing, 'free' this and 'free' that, could fill the gaps while transitioning to a pay -as -you -go system.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:10 AM   #186 (permalink)
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when that argument is made, crazy back peddling happens.

I've yet to hear a valid rebuttal.

What if there was no health insurance? Each person saved some money for health care, if that is what they wanted to do, and then when they got sick or needed medicine, they paid for it. Costs would fall in line with what the market could bare. Like most other things, if you couldn't afford the total bill, you get a payment plan, credit card, borrow from the bank or friends and family, or go broke. Life isn't fair and financial pain comes from all sources. Not perfect, obviously, but we spend billions of dollars a year and are nowhere near perfect. Those billions of dollars spent on lobbying, arguing, 'free' this and 'free' that, could fill the gaps while transitioning to a pay -as -you -go system.
Not many folks can just whip out the credit card to pay for a $50,000 heart attack.

Just sayin'.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:17 AM   #187 (permalink)
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What people tend to forget or think about, part of the reason health care costs are so high is the technology we now have to treat, detect and prevent conditions. There's a reason the survivor rate for cancers heart attacks and other major illnesses is higher. You have to take that into affect. It's no just all the negative shit people talk about. It's the machines, labs, studies to figure shit out that cost billions and billions to produce, buy and pay people who know how to use them. That's why going to single payor will never happen. There's too much money involved, both positive money and negative influential money.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:27 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
Not many folks can just whip out the credit card to pay for a $50,000 heart attack.

Just sayin'.
so would a heart attack cost 50k if no one could pay for it?

It only cost $50k now because 'insurance' will pay for it. After the insurance companies get their cut, after the billing companies get their cut, after the hospital management group gets their cut, after the people that walk in with no money get taken care of (regardless of citizenship), after the crack addict gets taken care of, then you get your $5000 heart attack care.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:28 AM   #189 (permalink)
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so would a heart attack cost 50k if no one could pay for it?



It only cost $50k now because 'insurance' will pay for it. After the insurance companies get their cut, after the billing companies get their cut, after the hospital management group gets their cut, after the people that walk in with no money get taken care of (regardless of citizenship), after the crack addict gets taken care of, then you get your $5000 heart attack care.


You can't be that dumb right? No offense but where do you think insurance makes money off of a heart attack?! Your logic is lacking a lot of thought and brains
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:30 AM   #190 (permalink)
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And hell, why should any business whether it be billing companies hospitals or Drs, make any money? Let's just keep our doors open, lose money everyday and not pay our bills?
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:36 AM   #191 (permalink)
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How bout all those non profit hospitals? do they need mega profits?
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:39 AM   #192 (permalink)
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so would a heart attack cost 50k if no one could pay for it?

It only cost $50k now because 'insurance' will pay for it. After the insurance companies get their cut, after the billing companies get their cut, after the hospital management group gets their cut, after the people that walk in with no money get taken care of (regardless of citizenship), after the crack addict gets taken care of, then you get your $5000 heart attack care.
^^All good arguments for single-payer.

Note: I am not for single-payer ala the UK or Canadia, but recognize the value of large-pool insurance groups.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:47 AM   #193 (permalink)
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And hell, why should any business whether it be billing companies hospitals or Drs, make any money? Let's just keep our doors open, lose money everyday and not pay our bills?
if there was no health insurance, then the price of service would be on the menu.

There would be no need for a staff of billing 'professionals', which yes, today they make money off each bill then send. Or the hospital has to do the billing, when someone has to pay for.

The health insurance companies make billions of dollars, and build nice fancy buildings, where does that money come from? From the crazy high premiums people pay because they are scared of the high health care costs. Which in turn means that doctors and hospitals can charge more, because the insurance companies can afford to reimburse.

Someone mentioned earlier that they paid 14k in premiums every year, and had a high deductible. What if they just saved that money, earning interest, for future health care needs?

Or, as promised by Obama, that you were't tied to a job for the health insurance that was offered? Everyone paid their own way, which would, for the most part, encourage healthy habits.

Not perfect by any means, but neither is the current system.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:49 AM   #194 (permalink)
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^^All good arguments for single-payer.

Note: I am not for single-payer ala the UK or Canadia, but recognize the value of large-pool insurance groups.
No, not single payer.

The hospital would still make money, just off the people that paid, not billing insurance companies.

I was explaining the high costs, some of the costs would still be included in health care.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:55 AM   #195 (permalink)
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I agree with you on the current system. And insurance companies are only profitable on their group business right now. Individual plans they are losing hundreds of millions due to obamacare, look it up its facts. That's why UHC Aetna Coventry Cigna are no longer offering individual coverage. You can't simply take insurance companies out of the equation and think costs are going to go down. That just simply makes no fuckin sense, at all. Equipment, labs hell even education are still going to cost $$$. obamacare is a huge failure on every level and its cost everyone involved millions. Drs and hospitals get paid on a lower scale, we pay much higher premiums have higher deductibles and insurance companies are still losing money. Anyone who thinks single payor is a good idea doesn't understand economics enough to see the damage losing these companies would be. Like it or not, they play a huge vital role in our economy. No one bitches about their auto insurance or home owners insurance that profit billions but expect health insurance companies to lose money or simply not exist?!? We do need major reform, anyone who is half way intelligent can see that and regardless what side of the table you're on, these politicians don't know jack shit about the health care system and neither do 80% of the American people. They need people who have knowledge of the system with no political or economic ties to create a reform bill that actually works. Til then, we will get nothing but a bunch of bullshit out of Washington
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:07 AM   #196 (permalink)
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What people tend to forget or think about, part of the reason health care costs are so high is the technology we now have to treat, detect and prevent conditions. There's a reason the survivor rate for cancers heart attacks and other major illnesses is higher. You have to take that into affect. It's no just all the negative shit people talk about. It's the machines, labs, studies to figure shit out that cost billions and billions to produce, buy and pay people who know how to use them. That's why going to single payor will never happen. There's too much money involved, both positive money and negative influential money.
I don't understand. I live surrounded by technology. Without exception, these devices have become exponentially more capable and their price has kept coming down year after year. My smartphone probably has more computing power than all of NASA in 1969, yet it only costs a couple hundred dollars.

It is with industries that are heavily regulated and atrophied by the government where cost curve has gone the other direction, combined with the lack of consequences for frivolous lawsuits.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:15 AM   #197 (permalink)
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I don't understand. I live surrounded by technology. Without exception, these devices have become exponentially more capable and their price has kept coming down year after year. My smartphone probably has more computing power than all of NASA in 1969, yet it only costs a couple hundred dollars.

It is with industries that are heavily regulated and atrophied by the government where cost curve has gone the other direction, combined with the lack of consequences for frivolous lawsuits.


I can certainly agree with you to an extent regarding regulations and government control. But you're comparing a cell phone that's relatively simple technology to say an MRI or CT Scan machine, it's a much larger scale product with tons more technology and far less produced. If they made as many imagery machines as cell phones and they were purchased like cell phones than sure they'd be significantly cheaper. I get the point you're trying to make but these machines aren't simple cell phones. A computer back in the 70s coat significantly more than those of today and couldn't do nearly as much but I bet the number comparison of them being readily available was also significant. Not to mention it now costs less to build them.
Again, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and that they couldn't be had for less right now but not by much that'll offset costs significantly.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:19 AM   #198 (permalink)
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I can certainly agree with you to an extent regarding regulations and government control. But you're comparing a cell phone that's relatively simple technology to say an MRI or CT Scan machine, it's a much larger scale product with tons more technology and far less produced. If they made as many imagery machines as cell phones and they were purchased like cell phones than sure they'd be significantly cheaper. I get the point you're trying to make but these machines aren't simple cell phones. A computer back in the 70s coat significantly more than those of today and couldn't do nearly as much but I bet the number comparison of them being readily available was also significant. Not to mention it now costs less to build them.
Again, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong and that they couldn't be had for less right now but not by much that'll offset costs significantly.
Sure, the economy of scale is different for an MRI machine than for a cell phone, but when every component for that MRI machine is manufactured, assembled and the machine is approved for use, how much unnecessary red tape is there? How many competing MRI machines are never brought to market because of this?
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:22 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Sure, the economy of scale is different for an MRI machine than for a cell phone, but when every component for that MRI machine is manufactured, assembled and the machine is approved for use, how much unnecessary red tape is there? How many competing MRI machines are never brought to market because of this?


Again, I'm not saying I disagree with you and that's partially why RXs cost as much as they do but that's a whole other topic! Certainly there should be a way to produce these things at lower costs.
But you're actually proving my point. By simply eliminating insurance companies it won't bring down medical costs at all. There's a shit ton more involved
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:41 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Anyone who thinks single payor is a good idea doesn't understand economics enough to see the damage losing these companies would be. Like it or not, they play a huge vital role in our economy. No one bitches about their auto insurance or home owners insurance that profit billions but expect health insurance companies to lose money or simply not exist?!?
Tell me: What value do insurance companies bring to the health care market, that can't be duplicated by organizing healthcare without so much "friction"?

By some estimates (the one I'm thinking of comes from Aetna), about 50% of medical procedures can be classified as "defensive medicine" to prove what's already known to ensure payment and to avoid potential litigation.

That's a tremendous waste, causes unnecessary discomfort to the patient, and is another reason our healthcare costs 2X that in the rest of the Western world. Tort and malpractice reform, along with standardization in billing and uniform coverage standards could go a long way to eliminating these expenses.

Everybody talks about not wanting to fuck up 20% of the U.S. economy.

I say, why the fuck should it cost 20% of our GDP to be healthy, when the majority of the world can do it for around 10%. Let's focus on getting that portion of the economy to shrink, as a % of GDP.
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