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Old 04-11-2019, 09:53 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yep, we should keep the secrets of a massively overreaching government at all costs. Never mind that those secrets are about how much they're overreaching, and about how the government is skirting the Constitution at every turn.

In my view, he's not the hero he's made himself out to be. But he has ABSOLUTELY sacrificed to bring some accountability to our out-of-control government. He would want me on his jury.
Agreed
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:54 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Providing huge dumps of data you are not authorized to release is not whistleblowing, it is a crime. If he wanted to expose illegal actions there were a multitude of ways to do it without publicly releasing classified data. This is one subject that I always bring up when interviewing people who will have access to proprietary data, their answer tells me if they should be allowed to access any of it.
What do you do if the proper channels are corrupted or could become compromised?
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:06 AM   #28 (permalink)
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The crime he is being extradited for carries a max penalty of 5 years.

Seems like there is more to the plan than meets the eye. I'm calling them Trumped up charges. He's coming back to bring down the Deep State once and for all.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:16 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm saying that as a person with access to data, you don't get to decide to run to a foreign country and release it to the world.

And to answer your question - you are living in a dream world if you don't think that hundreds of governments and private companies are not monitoring, using, buying and selling every piece of information about you already (in perfectly legal ways).
I guess the fishing incident that actually gave the access to the information in the first place is excusable.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:21 AM   #30 (permalink)
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The crime he is being extradited for carries a max penalty of 5 years.

Seems like there is more to the plan than meets the eye. I'm calling them Trumped up charges. He's coming back to bring down the Deep State once and for all.
I said pretty much that this morning. The "arrest" is to legitimize bringing him to the States.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:58 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I predict and acquittal. He's been sitting in that embassy for 7 years, and I bet he's got dirt on just about everyone.

While it's difficult to condone what he's done, without it, we wouldn't have even had a glimpse into the magnitude of corruption in our government.

He's a martyr for sure.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:01 AM   #32 (permalink)
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What do you do if the proper channels are corrupted or could become compromised?
So, what other law(s) are you going to disregard because you claim the "system" is corrupt ? Feel free to violate any/all laws you feel like under that idea.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:16 AM   #33 (permalink)
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So, what other law(s) are you going to disregard because you claim the "system" is corrupt ? Feel free to violate any/all laws you feel like under that idea.
Sometimes you have to break a few eggs.

No, I'm not saying laws don't matter but, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to expose those that can hide their abuse of power.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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So, what other law(s) are you going to disregard because you claim the "system" is corrupt ? Feel free to violate any/all laws you feel like under that idea.
Government violation of citizens’ natural rights is orders of magnitude worse than citizens violating a governments’ laws. Government has no natural rights—only protections granted to it by its own bureaucracy.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:26 AM   #35 (permalink)
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So, what other law(s) are you going to disregard because you claim the "system" is corrupt ? Feel free to violate any/all laws you feel like under that idea.
Well, that's a side of the isle I didn't expect to see you sitting in.

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Government violation of citizens’ natural rights is orders of magnitude worse than citizens violating a governments’ laws. Government has no natural rights—only protections granted to it by its own bureaucracy.
This is more along the path my thought process takes me. I think I have a pretty good sense of right and wrong that very often conflicts with what law makers and lawyers deemed to be so.

A lot of the top secret "classified" stuff is kept under wraps because it's completely unethical and the public would be outraged to know it was a major factor in the decisions made by their elected representatives and governing members.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:28 AM   #36 (permalink)
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So, what other law(s) are you going to disregard because you claim the "system" is corrupt ? Feel free to violate any/all laws you feel like under that idea.
can you answer his question with an answer and not another question and usual sarcasm?

As Thumping said, sometimes you need to break a few eggs to get to the real important matters

BTW, breaking laws to change laws or unjust situations for ever. I guess you think that uppity black woman should have just gotten her black ass to the back of the bus since that was the law, eh?
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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BTW, breaking laws to change laws or unjust situations for ever. I guess you think that uppity black woman should have just gotten her black ass to the back of the bus since that was the law, eh?
Good analogy, and very appropriate. Not all laws are just. Unjust laws might as well not exist, in my mind.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:33 AM   #38 (permalink)
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SDCJ, I would've loved to watch you explain to Thomas Jefferson that something that is weakening the power of the king is treason. I've never seen a tiny man beat a self-righteous old fool to death, but that's how it would've gone.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:34 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Sometimes you have to break a few eggs.

No, I'm not saying laws don't matter but, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to expose those that can hide their abuse of power.
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Government violation of citizens’ natural rights is orders of magnitude worse than citizens violating a governments’ laws. Government has no natural rights—only protections granted to it by its own bureaucracy.
The usual rationalizations/excuses for disregarding COTUS if you don't get what you want. That approach leads to anarchy and then you might as well throw COTUS in the shitter. Throws out the whole basis of how this country is run.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:37 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I'm saying that as a person with access to data, you don't get to decide to run to a foreign country and release it to the world.

And to answer your question - you are living in a dream world if you don't think that hundreds of governments and private companies are not monitoring, using, buying and selling every piece of information about you already (in perfectly legal ways).
So, in your opinion, it's completely moral to spy on private citizens, without a warrant as if this were an authoritarian state?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's moral, and just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral.

Also, these guys weren't just "Joe Blow". Snowden was an expert in cyber-counter-intelligence.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:40 AM   #41 (permalink)
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The usual rationalizations/excuses for disregarding COTUS if you don't get what you want. That approach leads to anarchy and then you might as well throw COTUS in the shitter. Throws out the whole basis of how this country is run.
What's funny is there are several places experiencing anarchy right now, and I find myself a bit envious of their community.

That's beside the point. I'm not going to argue your stance. It seems to oppose a lot of what I thought you stood for. Maybe I'm wrong, but what exactly are you upset about being exposed? Or is it the principle of the situation that you are against? I personally see Wikileaks as a fail safe. It's an unbiased 3rd party, egalitarian organization who uses the power of information to keep political bodies in check or at the very least their flocks informed. That's not a system I'd like to see destroyed as long as it continues to work for the people and not against them.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:41 AM   #42 (permalink)
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The usual rationalizations/excuses for disregarding COTUS if you don't get what you want. That approach leads to anarchy and then you might as well throw COTUS in the shitter. Throws out the whole basis of how this country is run.
You know good and well the point of the Constitution is to create a society where the government does NOT trample its people. That's it. The Bill of Rights was an add-on to make sure that the majority didn't trample the minority.

Nothing in either document is there to create an unassailable all-knowing state that threatens you with violence for anything that makes life difficult for it. Treason is about betraying your fellow citizens to an enemy. Not about betraying your government to your fellow citizens.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:59 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Treason is about betraying your fellow citizens to an enemy. Not about betraying your government to your fellow citizens.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:05 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I typically keep quiet when Gary starts. I agree with some of his defenses of the constitution (more of interpretation I suppose), but this is double speak. To say all laws made by an all powerful government are to be followed whether they violate natural rights or the bill of rights, follow the law. If the "proper channels" would have it buried and you killed, at least you tried to blow a whistle legally?
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:11 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Uh-Huh. I bet. And how'd you come to those conclusions?
I think people who knowingly, openly commit treason, and assorted other crimes are good indications of being shit people.

I have read what they have to say for themselves and found it self serving, ego driven and self important.

I don't choose to play the game where if the coward supports the issues I support I ignore the bad actions. Instead, I have a set of standards and even if it benefits me, if the actions are wrong, they are wrong.

Also, I'm still 'stuck' in believing that wrong is wrong and that even if the other does awful shit, it does not justify the same action on my side.

Old fashioned. But, that is how I came to those conclusions. I studied the actions and evidence and drew a conclusion.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:13 PM   #46 (permalink)
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What's funny is there are several places experiencing anarchy right now, and I find myself a bit envious of their community.

That's beside the point. I'm not going to argue your stance. It seems to oppose a lot of what I thought you stood for. Maybe I'm wrong, but what exactly are you upset about being exposed? Or is it the principle of the situation that you are against? I personally see Wikileaks as a fail safe. It's an unbiased 3rd party, egalitarian organization who uses the power of information to keep political bodies in check or at the very least their flocks informed. That's not a system I'd like to see destroyed as long as it continues to work for the people and not against them.
This is a remarkably naive post... If you think Assange has no bias and that Chelsea Manning is not a traitor you are not paying attention to the known facts.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:15 PM   #47 (permalink)
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There was a silver lining to what Snowden did. It was still a crime and he should go to prison forever, silver lining or not. It should be very very very rare that it happens.

Assange on the other hand, he didn't give two shits about who he might have hurt doing what he was doing. He was up on his high horse thinking he was invincible. He put out the shit Manning stole and that could have actually gotten people killed if I remember correctly.

I don't think the two cases a really the same, the punishment should be though.

I also think Assange will show he didn't get the Podesta emails from Russia. He got them from the dead DNC guy.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:15 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I think people who knowingly, openly commit treason, and assorted other crimes are good indications of being shit people.

I have read what they have to say for themselves and found it self serving, ego driven and self important.

I don't choose to play the game where if the coward supports the issues I support I ignore the bad actions. Instead, I have a set of standards and even if it benefits me, if the actions are wrong, they are wrong.

Also, I'm still 'stuck' in believing that wrong is wrong and that even if the other does awful shit, it does not justify the same action on my side.

Old fashioned. But, that is how I came to those conclusions. I studied the actions and evidence and drew a conclusion.
So you think our forefathers are shit people and we should still be part of England?
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:18 PM   #49 (permalink)
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can you answer his question with an answer and not another question and usual sarcasm?

As Thumping said, sometimes you need to break a few eggs to get to the real important matters

BTW, breaking laws to change laws or unjust situations for ever. I guess you think that uppity black woman should have just gotten her black ass to the back of the bus since that was the law, eh?
Civil Disobedience HAS been an effective tool. The difference in the modern day is that when folks exercise it, they ACCEPT the punishment as a way to SHOW the problem with the law or practice. With Assange he wants to have his cake and eat it too and his goals weren't and aren't 'righteous' and about truth or freedom or even whistleblowing.

What is missing in this conversation is the concepts of due process...

There are a lot of folks who would look right past due process as though it is not foundational, but it is.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:19 PM   #50 (permalink)
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So you think our forefathers are shit people and we should still be part of England?
I think you are trying to be witty and just rediscovering why people ignore you at work.
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