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Old 03-19-2018, 02:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Foundation waterproofing

Cliffs: what works well to insulate and waterproof a cinder block foundation for a WI house?

Long version with all more info:

Wife and I bought another house (100+ year old farm house reset on a cinder block foundation is the early 50ís) last year and the basement has some pretty serious drainage issues. We had the house inspected from 7 different inspectors, each their own specialty, but somehow the foundation inspector missed the ability of getting upwards of ĹĒ of water into the basement. Weíre not able to go back to the company that remodeled the house as they bought it as a foreclosure (they excavated around 2 walls to reset the blocks and back fill properly) nor the foundation inspector. The house was inspected during/after spring thaw after all the snow had melted and several days of continous rain-essentially the worst case scenario possible so we thought. Iíve re-graded around the house, gutters are all good, etc. The issue is the soil around the house is primarily clay and there isnít any actual drain tile around the house to my knowledge. I decided Iím going to excavate around the entire house to run 2 layers of socked drain tile (1 below the footings and on several feet up from that) along with backing filling 18Ē off the house of clearstone. The tile will drain to a manmade 10íx10í pond Iíll also be digging since Iíll have the excator (largest I can go before the DNR gets involved). While I have the foundation and footing exposed Iím going to insulate and waterproof the foundation as weíll be installing an egress window in place of block windows for an additional bedroom (weíll be starting the adoption process in a few years and want the ratio of bedrooms to children better than 4 kids to 2 bedrooms). Iím struggling with finding the correct products to use, the correct processes, time lines for each, and ultimately the cost. Iím not interested in paying someone to come do it for me as my very rough estimates put me between $8-10K. All 3 of my neighbors have had just 1 walls each (30í walls) excavated and straightened (cinder block buckling in at the frost line) and it cost them all $10-12K each. Who here has any input aside from gas and a match or put it her butt?

I was looking at the waterproof membrane and this is really the only one that popped out at me:
Water Barrier - Rhizome Barrier Supply

I had also considered looking into this one due to it being self adhering and recommended by a few forums, but I canít seem to find any pricing anywhere for it:
https://soprema.us/products/waterpro...ene-icf/25131/

Iím using R13 foam board as the upstairs is only 2x4 (actual) construction.
https://www.menards.com/main/buildin...717960&ipos=31

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Old 03-19-2018, 03:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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the best way to keep water out of the basement is to keep water away from the basement. The perimeter drain you described is a good start, given the limited information you supplied.

How is the water level during the wet months? Is the water that enters the basement just migrating and being intercepted by your basement or does the entire area experience elevated ground water levels?

If you have shallow ground water levels you might want to look into a sump/pump somewhere in the middle of your basement along with the perimeter drain system.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
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We spec Tremco stuff down here. Drainage board and waterproofing. No idea if they have something that works for you but might be worth looking.

I donít know if you gain anything from the upper drain tile, wouldnít the water just ďfall outĒ of it and down into the lower one?
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.

This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.

This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.
This is how to do it properly.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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We spec Tremco stuff down here. Drainage board and waterproofing. No idea if they have something that works for you but might be worth looking.

I donít know if you gain anything from the upper drain tile, wouldnít the water just ďfall outĒ of it and down into the lower one?
If the lower one can't keep up, my upper one flows. Also serves as a back up if silt builds up in the lower.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Figure out what the highest the water level could ever possibly get. Jack up house 10 feet above this level. Demo existing basement. Pour monolithic concrete foundation (pinned to bedrock), with the basement floor 2 feet above highest possible water level. Enjoy not ever having to give one fuck about what the water in the ground is doing, or caring if you have power or not to run sump pumps FOREVER.

You'll thank me later.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:59 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Fill the basement with concrete? Nobody around here has a basement. Nobody has water intrusion issues.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Figure out what the highest the water level could ever possibly get. Jack up house 10 feet above this level. Demo existing basement. Pour monolithic concrete foundation (pinned to bedrock), with the basement floor 2 feet above highest possible water level. Enjoy not ever having to give one fuck about what the water in the ground is doing, or caring if you have power or not to run sump pumps FOREVER.

You'll thank me later.
Pirate has convinced me that basements are an awful idea. I would rather build up, not down.
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.

This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.
This is what I want to do. Struggling with the ROI since I might get water once every 3 years. That and previous owner punched holes on the floor for ejector pump and toilet. Not feasible to spray below the floor. Thinking about just striping the inside framing and applying dryloc?
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The wall-o-text says something about draining to a 10x10 pond? Is that pump up and over to or is the grade a hillside that you can drain to daylight? If it's hillside, you might just need to grab the water before it reaches the house with some french drains.

Otherwise, what I've read/watched is drilled PVC drain tiles over the corrugated flex stuff because it collapses. I've never understood the filter fabric around the pipe. If it clogs over the holes, you have to dig it up to fix. Fabric, gravel, pipe. If it makes it to the gravel, let it flow out. Put some cleanouts in while you have it open.
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
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the best way to keep water out of the basement is to keep water away from the basement. The perimeter drain you described is a good start, given the limited information you supplied.



How is the water level during the wet months? Is the water that enters the basement just migrating and being intercepted by your basement or does the entire area experience elevated ground water levels?



If you have shallow ground water levels you might want to look into a sump/pump somewhere in the middle of your basement along with the perimeter drain system.


House is on top on a slight hill already. This is just the water running off the siding and down the foundation. There isnít any standing water anywhere on my 1 acre lot.

I have a sump pump that runs nearly non stop when it rains, doesnít have to be much. Thereís also a 2íx2í hole in the floor 2í off the wall I have the most issues with and the ground is bone dry when thereís literal streams of water running between the wall and slab. The water also sleeps through the water lock paint upwards of 12Ē off the slab.

My well runs several hundred feet deep.


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Old 03-19-2018, 04:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.



This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.


This exactly what Iím doing only Iíll also be adding 2Ē foam board, this adds $3K alone.

What Iím looking for are brands of waterproofing, membrane, filter fiber, etc. Iím not finding anything locally without paying someone to do it for me.


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Old 03-19-2018, 05:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Google search drainboard foundation waterproofing. Pulls up plenty of links, lowes even has it.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Do some reading on https://buildingscience.com/ these guys are the leaders in the industry for a number of wall, roof and foundation assemblies. Dr. Joe Lstiburek is brilliant and brings real word experience to his solutions.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:32 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Sounds like your on the right track, I would also add a sump pump in the floor. All the waterproofing in the world won’t help if the water table is higher than the floor.

Basically fuck basements, they all leak sooner or later. We have had issues when we get a big melt. I waterproofed and added drainage. I really need to add a sump in one corner to pump down to the base of the footings.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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We spent serious money last year doing a membrane on the foundation of the house and a exterior french drain to divert the water..... long story short we were still getting water....

So we said fawk it and just did the interior french drain and sump pump like we should have in the first place.

Digging up the foundation is a huge task especially with all utility lines etc, also the possibility of damaging or weakening the foundation, we had bracing in the basement for a few months.

I would just do your best in figuring out where the water is coming from and making the best decision, just letting you know what we did.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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There is a product developed by the .gov just for cement blocks, now available to all of us, it's called Block Bond. Mixes like concrete/stucco, trowel on, waterproof=profit.

Drain to daylight FTMFW
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:23 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Look at these guys:

https://www.dorken.com/media/docs/pr...e_DELTA-MS.pdf

https://www.dorken.com/en/our-produc...l/delta-ms.php

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The Foundation Protection System that Keeps Basements Dry
Protecting your foundations from water and moisture is critical. DELTAģ-MS is a dimpled membrane that uses our exclusive Air-gap Technology to ensure your basements stay dry and last longer.

Watch our webinar and see why DELTAģ-MS is the solution.


Long-lasting Moisture Protection, Long-lasting Satisfaction
The vacuum-formed dimpled pattern creates an air gap between the membrane and the foundation, allowing water to drain. By keeping water away from the foundation wall, DELTAģ-MS is able to keep basements permanently dry and protected. Unlike sprays, which crack when concrete walls crack, it bridges cracks so no water intrusions can occur. This dampproofing helps ensure more comfortable and healthier living spaces for your homeowners; better efficiency and durability for your buildings; and fewer warranty claims and call-backs for you.
I've only used their slab underlayment product for keeping a wood floor on a slab from getting funky (different, lighter weight system). Very good product that seals as well as provides an airspace, or, in your case, a drainage plane.

I've seen several articles in the Journal of Fine Home Building, etc., along with enuf building science to think this would be a good solution.

It's something I'm considering for a client that has a similar problem.

In my mind, it provides a "safe space" of about 1" between soil/gravel and foundation wall. The inevitable moisture, drips, etc. hae a place to go and drain to with this system, and it provides a means for the concrete foundation wall to dry quickly, should it get damp.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I've got a project coming up later this spring. Been seriously looking at this as a primary sealer

https://www.radonseal.com/radonseal-mitigation.htm

then this as a follow up.

Deco Products

Then follow up with Screwys dimple mats

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Old 03-21-2018, 09:35 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Look at these guys:

https://www.dorken.com/media/docs/pr...e_DELTA-MS.pdf

https://www.dorken.com/en/our-produc...l/delta-ms.php



I've only used their slab underlayment product for keeping a wood floor on a slab from getting funky (different, lighter weight system). Very good product that seals as well as provides an airspace, or, in your case, a drainage plane.

I've seen several articles in the Journal of Fine Home Building, etc., along with enuf building science to think this would be a good solution.

It's something I'm considering for a client that has a similar problem.

In my mind, it provides a "safe space" of about 1" between soil/gravel and foundation wall. The inevitable moisture, drips, etc. hae a place to go and drain to with this system, and it provides a means for the concrete foundation wall to dry quickly, should it get damp.


I’ve seen that, like the concept, but it’s not what I need/am looking for. I need waterproof, not dampproof. I know I could use this around the insulation that’s being adhered to the block foundation but I’m not sure how that helps over plain 30-80 mil rubber sheet. I assume there’s a large price difference.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:10 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.



This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.


Revisiting this: would you still spray the concrete in waterproofing and put the insulation board over that and then wrap the insulation board with some type of waterproof membrane?

Or not spray the waterproofing on the concrete, just install the insulation board and wrap in membrane?

Iím thinking that you donít want the insulation board sandwiched between two waterproofed items.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Grind ditches in basement near wall that drain to a sump. Invest in good sump pump and generator. That's SOP up here for the spring thaw in old houses. I used to live in a house that would get 5000+GPH of water in it for a few weeks. I had a 1hp wayne sump pump than ran constantly and a 1/2hp no-name pump that cycled. Jets of water would shoot in from the block. We lost power for about 1 hour one spring had had 2 feet of water down there.

So glad to be in the house I'm in now. SCREW wet basements.
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