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Old 11-23-2018, 07:46 AM   #26 (permalink)
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The illegals would just think the hippos were fat women and try and fuck em.
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Old 11-23-2018, 08:23 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You know, I keep going back on this issue. On one hand I am not effected by any of it. On the other hand I can't say I agree with any of the status quo talking points being passed around. The idea of a fortified boarder is pretty logical. The need for documented ingress and egress is logical. From personal experiance migrant workers have more work ethic and drive. They are willing to put more into what their task is without bitching about it. I really would chose a hard working Mexican guy over a similarly skilled American at this point.

My thought is why are we not changing the immigration process to help create a better system for these migrant workers to come in and gain access to legal jobs? I look at what Bush did allowing South Americans and Mexicans to come in, get a work Visa and a Tax ID card that allowed them to contribute and all they had to do was get to the boarder and declare themselves with credentials. This whole war on drugs has been a complete sham. It's done more to create a vacuum of power and spread chaos than it has to actually stop any kind of trafficking. The whole "war" seems to be more about manipulating public opinion than it has to make our society a better place.

I just can't seem to rally behind the team mentality here. I am an individual. I am thankful I was born here and don't have the burden of trying to relocate myself to a country like this just to have the opportunities and lifestyle I do. I have a lot of sympathy for those who drew the short stick. I also have a pretty graphic understanding of the mass of humans who exist and the true meaningless of our lives. It all offers contradictory emotions. I have to say that my weight bares on the side of caution here. Killing people who search out these freedoms and opportunities seems like the wrong move to make till we change the immigration system and the steps required to abide by the laws. We have a massive bureaucracy that does not lend itself well to cooperation. The majority of these people do not have classical educations and the language barrier adds nothing to their cause. It's a system not much different to our incarceration network. Very little "rehabilitation" is being made. From the experience I've had talking to immigrants the US sets up a very intimidating and very bias image that keeps most immigrants out of the proper avenues and instead leads to them relying on black market channels.

More than anything I seem to be most upset about the lack options here; like a presidential race, I only seem to be offered two options. Nothing this complex is black and white.
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:19 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You didn't mention illegal once.

You say we need a border but you sound more like an open border guy.

If you pay taxes this affects you.

There is a way to come here legally. Why should sneaking across let you cut in line?
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:44 AM   #29 (permalink)
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You didn't mention illegal once.

You're right I don't see a need to include this trigger word. This is a point that applies to the people still in those nations and the incentives that lead to their choices to migrate.

You say we need a border but you sound more like an open border guy.

I really don't understand how you come to this conclusion other than a predisposition that I fall under the other teams ideology just because it differs from yours. There are more options than just "enforce the current system" and "get rid of all systems and let the door swing freely". I do not subscribe to the "enforce current system" camps. I also do not think open boarders is reasonable at all.

If you pay taxes this affects you.

Yes in many ways. Just like child birth, War, commercial agriculture, power companies, bank laws, and education effects me. You have to pick and choose what's worth getting yourself worked up over. Not sure about you, but I'm pretty helpless as an individual to what my tax dollars afford me. However, I have the right to my feelings on subjects and about humanity itself. My objective is to be self-aware and objective to my own hypocrisies. There are plenty of litigated rules that I disagree with and oppose. There are plenty of laws enforced that have ventured on the side of unethical. I'm willing to hold philosophical opinions that stand to oppose logic in the name of virtue no mater their reality in my life.

There is a way to come here legally. Why should sneaking across let you cut in line?

Yes and the current way to get hear legally is not working correctly. The illegal immigrant problem is a clear indication of that. It's like welfare/disability/financial assistance/subsidies; the system in place is not managed correctly. Doesn't mean nobody should ever receive assistance. It just means the assistance offered right now is a gross mismanagement of our budget.
Hope some of that clears up our differences in approaching the issue.

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Old 11-23-2018, 10:55 AM   #30 (permalink)
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The illegals would just think the hippos were fat women and try and fuck em.


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Old 11-23-2018, 11:08 AM   #31 (permalink)
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man, you all are sorely missing the point.

no one wants to stop illegal immigration. period.

all the bluster from republicans and all the wailing from the dems doesn't mean shit.
they all want cheap labor.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:18 AM   #32 (permalink)
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man, you all are sorely missing the point.

no one wants to stop illegal immigration. period.

all the bluster from republicans and all the wailing from the dems doesn't mean shit.
they all want cheap labor.
That's what I'm seeing nobody whats to stop the Illegals. Nobody seems to want to set up a migration system that promotes legal immigration.

We have this huge open medium for dialog and instead were distracted passing the volleyball.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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That's what I'm seeing nobody whats to stop the Illegals. Nobody seems to want to set up a migration system that promotes legal immigration.

We have this huge open medium for dialog and instead were distracted passing the volleyball.
They donít want to make legal immigrants. As soon as they become legal they are going to want to get paid like everyone else, why should they work for any less than other Americans. By letting them sneak in the country the illegals will take any work available even if they are being taken advantage of. Neither party wants to fix the problem. We will still have this problem 20 years from now.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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like we used to have?

millions of people came through ellis island with nothing more than a short medical exam, and twenty questions.

if you weren't obviously bringing the plague and had $20 in your pocket, you got papers, and often times in a few hours you were on your way.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:54 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Hope some of that clears up our differences in approaching the issue.
Sorry if I triggered you.

I said you sounded like an open border guy because it seems like you do. Like my liberal brother who feels guilty he was born here with the opportunities we have so he feels anyone who can get here any way should not be denied these opportunities. There are a lot of shithole countries in the world. Should we bring them all here?

We need a secure border. We need to know who is passing through that door. Simple as that. Sneaking in does not put you first in line.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:58 AM   #36 (permalink)
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They donít want to make legal immigrants. As soon as they become legal they are going to want to get paid like everyone else, why should they work for any less than other Americans. By letting them sneak in the country the illegals will take any work available even if they are being taken advantage of. Neither party wants to fix the problem. We will still have this problem 20 years from now.
You may very well have a point.

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like we used to have?

millions of people came through ellis island with nothing more than a short medical exam, and twenty questions.

if you weren't obviously bringing the plague and had $20 in your pocket, you got papers, and often times in a few hours you were on your way.
I'm sure there are a few additional steps that would be needed to integrate the current systems. For instance I think there should be a stipulation for incoming people that keeps them from applying themselves to the welfare roster. Something that is more along these lines seems like it could solve a large majority of the current issues.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:59 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Y'all are missing it totally. We don't need to change immigration. We need to close the border to illegals.

You say we have more jobs than workers? Why? How many of you have multiple aunts and uncles? Why is it SO friggin hard to BIRTH your future workers? Because cost of living is SO high compared to income that no one can afford to have 4 or 6 kids any more. We need to shut down the borders, leave the immigration system the same and bring that living wage up. We're missing the true INTENDED way to increase the population of the country and are now 'birthing' our labor through the borders. No wonder our country is dying.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:05 PM   #38 (permalink)
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they all want cheap labor.
I want good labor. Mexicans are just that, cheap labor. When you end up having to do it twice, or fix broken equipment, you should've done it right the first time.

People seem to think we need their "cheap" labor. We dont.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:07 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Sorry if I triggered you.

My guy, I'm not trying to belittle your inteligance here. You do realize there are actually "trigger" words that evoke emotions in peaple due to word assosiation. I'm not claiming you're triggered and I myself an not triggered. Quit being childish, be a big boy and think through the words.

It seems like you do. Like my liberal brother

This is the team sports issue I'm talking about. just because my opinion looks similar to the only other counter argument you've heard you've grouped me into the other team. You blindly hate that team despite not actually understanding the details of these thoughts.

We need a secure border. We need to know who is passing through that door. Simple as that. Sneaking in does not put you first in line.

I realize you have not understood my points, but I'm actually advocating this very type of change. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:10 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I want good labor. Mexicans are just that.
For sure. I have a big problem with this point never being included in the discussion. It's such an important factor that Americans need to wake up to. Americans need some competition. We're getting soft and complacent.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:12 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I want good labor. Mexicans are just that, cheap labor. When you end up having to do it twice, or fix broken equipment, you should've done it right the first time.

People seem to think we need their "cheap" labor. We dont.
there's still demand for cheap manual unskilled labor.
that demand is why they come.

making the border "secure" is impossible as long as that demand exists.

How many billions do we spend every year to keep illicit rugs out of the country? Are we successful?
No, we aren't, because if there's a demand and profit to be made there will be people that figure out how to supply a market.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:26 PM   #42 (permalink)
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like we used to have?

millions of people came through ellis island with nothing more than a short medical exam, and twenty questions.

if you weren't obviously bringing the plague and had $20 in your pocket, you got papers, and often times in a few hours you were on your way.
Not understanding your point.

The Ellis Island scenario was the legal procedure at the time. The immigrants folks coming over on steamboats did not jump ship and swim to shore to bypass the process.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:29 PM   #43 (permalink)
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...
No need for personal attacks.

I have no blind hate for anyone.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:41 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Not understanding your point.

The Ellis Island scenario was the legal procedure at the time. The immigrants folks coming over on steamboats did not jump ship and swim to shore to bypass the process.
it was a response to the opinion posted that if we unfucked the immigration system we wouldn't have illegal immigrants.

Why does it cost 10 grand to hire a lawyer to start your application process for citizenship?

Why is everything a fee. how many times do they need to do a biometric fee and take your fingerprints?

real questions. Real world experience. I know a lady that finally got her citizenship sorted out after being here and being married, with a job, paying taxes, all of it, for like 5 years.
She claims it cost her and her husband (born citizen) nearly 25 grand, and took nearly two years.
The process is fucked.

again, the problem is government, not people. People just want to live better lives, government fucks up that process, so then people ignore the government.

It's the same argument you can apply to anything that the government has made illegal.
Drugs are illegal, yet we still have drug users.
criminals possessing firearms, illegal, yet we still have gun violence and criminals with guns.

government can't stop shit. So instead of focusing on more tax dollars to attempt tp stop shit, maybe we should consider a policy chnge that saves us tax dollars and accomplishes what the market is obviously demanding.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:47 PM   #45 (permalink)
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For sure. I have a big problem with this point never being included in the discussion. It's such an important factor that Americans need to wake up to. Americans need some competition. We're getting soft and complacent.
A Hispanic citizen? Sure, take my money.

A no speaky? Not worth the shit on the bottom of my boot.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:49 PM   #46 (permalink)
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there's still demand for cheap manual unskilled labor.
that demand is why they come.
Im open to discussion. What do you consider unskilled manual labor?
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:59 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Im open to discussion. What do you consider unskilled manual labor?
seasonal ag work.

my brother lives in the mushroom capital of the world.
all the farms have mexicans for the harvest.

I live 20 minutes away from the muck, A county with places that have names like celeryville.
Mexicans for the harvest.

How well would southern california agriculture function without immigrant labor?

fact is that these are the sorts of jobs that require a nearly nomadic lifestyle for shit pay.
I don't see American's signing up.

Then there's day laborers.
If you need someone to carry heavy shit from one place to another, do you want to hire a citizen and deal with paying minimum wage, reporting taxes and all that shit? Or would you rather just hire a mexican at the home depot for $50 a day and be done with it?


obviously demand exists, or they wouldn't have just busted a meat packing corporation near me for employing a bunch of illegals.
https://www.cleveland.com/metro/inde...ers_at_oh.html
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:02 PM   #48 (permalink)
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it was a response to the opinion posted that if we unfucked the immigration system we wouldn't have illegal immigrants.

Why does it cost 10 grand to hire a lawyer to start your application process for citizenship?

Why is everything a fee. how many times do they need to do a biometric fee and take your fingerprints?

real questions. Real world experience. I know a lady that finally got her citizenship sorted out after being here and being married, with a job, paying taxes, all of it, for like 5 years.
She claims it cost her and her husband (born citizen) nearly 25 grand, and took nearly two years.
The process is fucked.

again, the problem is government, not people. People just want to live better lives, government fucks up that process, so then people ignore the government.

It's the same argument you can apply to anything that the government has made illegal.
Drugs are illegal, yet we still have drug users.
criminals possessing firearms, illegal, yet we still have gun violence and criminals with guns.

government can't stop shit. So instead of focusing on more tax dollars to attempt tp stop shit, maybe we should consider a policy chnge that saves us tax dollars and accomplishes what the market is obviously demanding.
I actually think you guys are agreeing and misunderstanding each other. I know the two of us are arguing a similar point now.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:03 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 87manche View Post
it was a response to the opinion posted that if we unfucked the immigration system we wouldn't have illegal immigrants.

Why does it cost 10 grand to hire a lawyer to start your application process for citizenship?

Why is everything a fee. how many times do they need to do a biometric fee and take your fingerprints?

real questions. Real world experience. I know a lady that finally got her citizenship sorted out after being here and being married, with a job, paying taxes, all of it, for like 5 years.
She claims it cost her and her husband (born citizen) nearly 25 grand, and took nearly two years.
The process is fucked.

again, the problem is government, not people. People just want to live better lives, government fucks up that process, so then people ignore the government.

It's the same argument you can apply to anything that the government has made illegal.
Drugs are illegal, yet we still have drug users.
criminals possessing firearms, illegal, yet we still have gun violence and criminals with guns.

government can't stop shit. So instead of focusing on more tax dollars to attempt tp stop shit, maybe we should consider a policy chnge that saves us tax dollars and accomplishes what the market is obviously demanding.

Boo fucking hoo.

EVERYTHING in this country is over governed and over lawyered. Ever buy a house? How many third parties have their hands out?

Ever pay taxes? How about vehicle registration? That's a good one; we can all drive around without plates or insurance because we don't like the lines or process or fees down at the DMV.

It is a simple issue. To come in, follow the rules. Which rules? The rules in effect at the time.

It has nothing to do with good people, bad people, hard workers, gang members, women and children, racism, or anything else. But so many tie in those unrelated issues in their attempts to justify anyone walking in just because.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:08 PM   #50 (permalink)
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seasonal ag work.

my brother lives in the mushroom capital of the world.
all the farms have mexicans for the harvest.

I live 20 minutes away from the muck, A county with places that have names like celeryville.
Mexicans for the harvest.

How well would southern california agriculture function without immigrant labor?

fact is that these are the sorts of jobs that require a nearly nomadic lifestyle for shit pay.
I don't see American's signing up.

Then there's day laborers.
If you need someone to carry heavy shit from one place to another, do you want to hire a citizen and deal with paying minimum wage, reporting taxes and all that shit? Or would you rather just hire a mexican at the home depot for $50 a day and be done with it?


obviously demand exists, or they wouldn't have just busted a meat packing corporation near me for employing a bunch of illegals.
https://www.cleveland.com/metro/inde...ers_at_oh.html
I will agree on seasonal ag labor, but thats something you can get a work visa for. But with a industry shift to larger farms, i believe a mechanical process with overtake the need for hundreds of people. Small niche markets will still exist.

It boils down to greed and/or laziness, i can only hope that bites people in the ass. Which is why im for harsh punishments for people who do hire illegal labor.

A recent trailer manufacturer in tx (load trail) has been busted for illegal labor. I wrote them off when i was looking because of shotty craftmanship before they were busted. now its evident why.

California has terrible laws regarding taxes and labor. The demand is a product of other failures of society. Its just something i refuse to support.
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