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Old 12-11-2018, 07:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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The California Solar Mandate

Lots of spin surrounding this story. Hilarious reading conservative vs progressive news outlets about this one. This seems to be pretty neutral though.

https://www.solarwakeup.com/2018/12/...andate-future/

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California has been working for nearly seven months on a plan to mandate solar on the roofs of all new-build homes starting in 2020. While the initial fanfare surrounding the bill took place in May, it didn’t become, in the words of Kelly Knutsen, “officially official” until yesterday. Knutsen, Director of Technology Advancement for the California Solar & Storage Association, agreed to talk to SolarWakeup about the mandate: what it means and where the California solar industry will go from here.

SolarWakeup: We thought this was a done deal. What was the vote about today?

Kelly Knutsen, director of technology advancement for the California Solar & Storage Association (Knutsen):There was always the small asterisk that the final part of the process for updating the California Building Energy Efficiency Standards is that the California Building Standards Commission (CBSC) had to officially sign off on the California Energy Commission’s (CEC) May 9 vote to update the standards. As the CBSC explained before the discussion, the CBSC confirms that the CEC followed all the proper procedures in developing their updated rule. This is done every three years as one final check on the process to ensure everything is done appropriately. CBSC’s hearing and final vote yesterday confirmed the rigorous process.

SolarWakeup: How many new homes will this affect per year?

Knutsen: California on average builds 80,000 homes per year, per this California Department of Housing and Community Development report. There are exceptions for shading (the code is flexible for these types of instances), so technically not all new homes built will have solar, but 80,000 is a good estimate of the number of new homes every year that will now have solar installed.

SolarWakeup: What affect will this have on solar penetration in California

Knutsen: Each year there are roughly 120,000 solar installs on homes and buildings, and of those installations, currently only 15,000 are on new homes. (FYI — In 2016, there were 149,422 residential solar projects installed (both new and retrofit homes. It’s been on the order of 120,000 to 150,000 annually for past couple years). So, this new rule will see an increase from 15,000 to 80,000 new solar homes (65,000) each year. If retrofit stays the same, that increases overall installations to 185,000 per year, or 54% increase over the current 120,000 installs per year.

SolarWakeup Is the grid ready to handle the influx of distributed solar?

Knutsen: Yes. The grid already safely and reliably interconnects 120,000 to 150,000 residential solar installations each year, so adding another 65,000 each year is on the order of existing installations. In fact, the addition of distributed energy resources has been shown to actually decrease the need for additional transmission lines. PG&E, one of the nation’s biggest utilities, cancelled 13 transmission projects saving ratepayers $192 million – thanks to the growth of solar – making the additional ratepayer costs unnecessary. In addition, in Fresno, the rapid growth of solar has California officials reconsidering the need for a major new transmission line, which is projected to cost between $115 and $145 million to build. Finally, the new standards include a solar plus storage option, which if given the proper price signals, will provide benefits to both the grid and the consumer.

SolarWakeup: How will this affect utilities in the state?

Knutsen: I think the position of the utilities was best summarized in quotes from Julia Pyper’s GTM article on the new standards. In her article, Erik Takayesu, director of grid modernization, planning and technology at Southern California Edison said “[w]hen we look at what we need in the future to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, to get to the state’s goals of 40 percent below 1990 levels, there needs to be a lot more carbon-free resources that supply energy to the grid, and so we think that this is one component of that.” When discussing the impact to the grid, he added “[b]ut when we look across the system more holistically, when we consider the amount of electrification that’s needed with transportation, electric transportation, building electrification, we think that there will be some offset to the amount of solar that we’re seeing.”

SolarWakeup: Is the next goal to mandate energy storage and, if so, how soon will that discussion start?

Knutsen: The next goal on storage is to make it cheaper, easier and faster to install across the state. Discussions to make that happen are already underway and that will require work on multiple fronts. The state legislature just approved an extension of funding for storage incentives, and the state is working with local governments on ways to streamline the permitting processes through the implementation of AB 546. We worked hard to make the case for the inclusion of the solar plus storage option in the code, which we see as a very important step towards having all homes and businesses in California install storage – a goal we need to achieve in order to meet our ambitious climate change goals.

SolarWakeup: What advice would you give to other states that want to consider doing what California has done? What’s the most important lesson you learned through this process?

Knutsen: The key to California’s success was a well-known, inclusive and rigorous stakeholder process, with good debate, data and analysis from all parties. Like most things in life, building up working relationships over time can achieve good results that work well for all parties. The underlying framework was also there. State laws were passed over time (dating back to the 1970s) that established a state-agency-led process for increasing the energy efficiency of California’s buildings. Having a state agency implement the measure through a known three-year process developed strong buy-in from all stakeholders. Taking it in step-wise manner also helped. Solar was first option for compliance with codes (as was done in earlier versions of the standards) and then once determined to be cost-effective across all climate zones in the state it became a requirement. Flexibility for compliance, such as an understanding about shading, is important to include in a solar requirement. And finally, going back to the point at the top, make sure that it will be implemented. That means having key stakeholders like the solar industry and building community closely engaged in the process and on board with complying gives confidence that the codes will not just be paper on the books, but will provide real direction for real homes that will be built with solar.
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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More mandates....fuck'um. Sooner or later the whole house of cards will crumble.
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Lots of spin surrounding this story. Hilarious reading conservative vs progressive news outlets about this one. This seems to be pretty neutral though.

https://www.solarwakeup.com/2018/12/...andate-future/
shes a solar panel industry lobbyist. how can it be neutral? Did you catch all of the buzz words she used to trick you? you have been duped.

"The next goal on storage is to make it cheaper, easier and faster to install across the state"

This whole statement means government subsidies for storage and heavy regulation and permitting.



theres a ton of other bullshit she spewed but the interviewer never asked anything tough. Total propaganda piece the OP bit on hard.

"What is the percentage increase to total home building costs with mandated solar?"

"what is the lifespan of homeowner owner solar panels and is there a maintenance and replacement cost over the first 5, 10, 15 years?"

"How often do solar panels need to be replaced at the cost to the homeowner?"

"What is the average break even point in years to justify the cost of solar panels on a home from a energy cost standpoint? 30 years? 40 years? 50 years?"
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:27 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I think installing solar panels on your home is a great idea. I also think that the state mandating installation of solar panels on private construction is ridiculous.
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:31 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm sure big housing developers will find some loophole so they can maximize profits. Like install a solar car port down at the community park will count for 20 homes. Or something like that.
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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So they “saved” the taxpayers a couple hundred million by installing solar—meanwhile costing the taxpayers a few billion by installing solar.

$19,380 per install x 120,000 installs equals $2.3 billion.

What a cost savings for the taxpayer. With installs set to rise to 180,000 per year, just think of the savings that $3.5 billion cost will produce!!
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Gonna be good for us PV OEM's.
Speaking of, have you seen the new Tesla roof? I spec'd one out for my house and it was $93k with a $17k tax credit. Powerwall was $17.5k and the value of the energy at today's rate was $64,300 over 30 years. So the roof would really cost me about $21k over it's 30 year life. The panels are nice looking and it has a lifetime warranty on the roof and a 30 year on the power part of it.

https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

It's kinda sounding too good to be true. I already have a mostly electric house and am considering a used Tesla for the DD.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Arizona dipshits put that on our last ballot. Thankfully there were enough sane people left to vote it down. We were told average new home costs would increase by $30k. At that price it would not pay for itself unless the home owner stayed in the home for 30 years or some shit.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So the roof would really cost me about $21k over it's 30 year life.

It's kinda sounding too good to be true.
Your “break even” point is about 43 years should the power wall last that long. If it goes out at 30 years and one day, assuming price of it drops to half current, your true “break even” point is about 47-48 years.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:48 AM   #11 (permalink)
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"What is the average break even point in years to justify the cost of solar panels on a home from a energy cost standpoint? 30 years? 40 years? 50 years?"
Mine was 8 years. I have 3 more to go. Zero maintenance. Producing the same amount as 5 years ago.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:49 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Your “break even” point is about 43 years should the power wall last that long. If it goes out at 30 years and one day, assuming price of it drops to half current, your true “break even” point is about 47-48 years.
yep, and the batteries don't last that long, so you get one or two replacements during the 30 year span. Plus, Tesla uses 18650 cells in an array, which means as individual cells go out it gradually decreases capacity until they decide it's worth it to come out and replace the bad cells.

Assuming tesla survives once their .gov subsidies go away.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:51 AM   #13 (permalink)
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shes a solar panel industry lobbyist. how can it be neutral? Did you catch all of the buzz words she used to trick you? you have been duped.
Politically speaking. Rupublican based sources are on about the taxes. Democrat based sources are on about green energy. I couldn't find anything that just gave facts. Every article I came across had a slant of some fashion. I chose this article just for the fact that it was mostly quotes from someone seems to be on the ground in the solar industry and government in California.

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I think installing solar panels on your home is a great idea. I also think that the state mandating installation of solar panels on private construction is ridiculous.
Pretty much.
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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It was news in May. When California redefines what "new home" is to include a remodel no one will be surprised. Since it's only new homes and it doesn't take effect until 2020 most of the people who would be buying these over priced homes will have moved to another state and paid for solar panels to be installed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/b...lar-power.html

EDIT: When the builders install natural gas stoves and stop installing 220V outlets for dryers it will make even MORE sense to buy a new home in California.

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Old 12-11-2018, 11:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Mine was 8 years. I have 3 more to go. Zero maintenance. Producing the same amount as 5 years ago.
what was your subsidy from the government to install?

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Politically speaking. Rupublican based sources are on about the taxes. Democrat based sources are on about green energy. I couldn't find anything that just gave facts. Every article I came across had a slant of some fashion. I chose this article just for the fact that it was mostly quotes from someone seems to be on the ground in the solar industry and government in California.
SHE IS AN ADVOCATE FOR THE SOLAR PANEL INDUSTRY. Her job and industry depends on getting the California government to MANDATE solar panel installation on private home owners' roofs. What she is saying is pure spin and propaganda to promote more government regulation to sell more solar panels and solar panel accessories. There may be some truth in what she might be saying but she will always push to tell you that they are working with the Cal government to help citizens create energy with less environmental impact. Let me translate "We want everyone to be required to buy our product. Thanks California for helping make that happen."


It would be like you posting an article from 1971 interviewing Joe Bob Sundance who is head of the American Catalytic Converter Producers Consortium of America, where he tells everyone how great catalytic converters are and then saying the article is unbiased but is valid "because he is on the ground with the cat converter industry and the federal government".
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Liberal ideas so good...they have to be mandated for anyone to buy their shit.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm sure big housing developers will find some loophole so they can maximize profits. Like install a solar car port down at the community park will count for 20 homes. Or something like that.
my sister just put in solar panels on her CA house and she also lives next to a bunch of new construction that meets the install requirements. She says it is kind of funny just how many panels they needed to meet their needs compared to what is going into the new homes.

so, like all things mandated, it will only be a marginal success. While they may get the number of projects going in, the impact will be much less on the grid than predicted. So, more mandates will follow along with more expense on the taxpayers, i.e. home buyers and renters.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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my sister just put in solar panels on her CA house and she also lives next to a bunch of new construction that meets the install requirements. She says it is kind of funny just how many panels they needed to meet their needs compared to what is going into the new homes.

so, like all things mandated, it will only be a marginal success. While they may get the number of projects going in, the impact will be much less on the grid than predicted. So, more mandates will follow along with more expense on the taxpayers, i.e. home buyers and renters.
It has absolutely nothing to do with being successful at generating energy.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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"What is the percentage increase to total home building costs with mandated solar?"

"what is the lifespan of homeowner owner solar panels and is there a maintenance and replacement cost over the first 5, 10, 15 years?"

"How often do solar panels need to be replaced at the cost to the homeowner?"

"What is the average break even point in years to justify the cost of solar panels on a home from a energy cost standpoint? 30 years? 40 years? 50 years?"
We are looking into adding solar, and some of the costs are out there. We have had quotes anywhere from 30k to 50k. This would give us around 110% to 120% of our total power usage (based on yearly use). You can get federal tax credits, but they dont give you full 1.00 for 1.00 if you sell them (usually only around .60 on the dollar if you use them this way)

On the 30k system it would be around 170-180 a month for the first few months and then jump to 230 a month (on the 50k plan it would be over 500 a month, but less term period). After the payment period ( I believe it was 10 years), you own the system and then only have to pay the local hook up fee (9.00 and this pays for your hook up to local power grid and two way meter). it doesnt work very well to sell the energy back to the power company as they will only pay wholesale prices (but charge you full price if you buy from them). Its better to bank the power and use it when the panels are not producing as much power as needed and then if there is left over sell at the end of the year.

As far as warranty's go, all the plans we are looking at are guaranteed for 25 years or so, for faulty panels, and are all supposed to be producing in the 85-90% at that time. 10 year on workmanship. The panels all have their own micro converter, so if one goes down, it does not stop the entire system.

My mom just added solar to her home (which was total electric) and dropped her payments fro around 800 a month to just repayment and 9 dollar hook up fee (I think she said she paid under 300 last month).

If you can swing it, it would be a good thing as your not having to pay a company, that in my case, has the monopoly on power and can keep raising the prices to suit them. But to force someone to have to fork out that kind of cash is insane. Watch new home sales start dropping or sub par buildings being built to offset the costs.
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
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We are looking into adding solar, and some of the costs are out there. We have had quotes anywhere from 30k to 50k. This would give us around 110% to 120% of our total power usage (based on yearly use). You can get federal tax credits, but they dont give you full 1.00 for 1.00 if you sell them (usually only around .60 on the dollar if you use them this way)

On the 30k system it would be around 170-180 a month for the first few months and then jump to 230 a month (on the 50k plan it would be over 500 a month, but less term period). After the payment period ( I believe it was 10 years), you own the system and then only have to pay the local hook up fee (9.00 and this pays for your hook up to local power grid and two way meter). it doesnt work very well to sell the energy back to the power company as they will only pay wholesale prices (but charge you full price if you buy from them). Its better to bank the power and use it when the panels are not producing as much power as needed and then if there is left over sell at the end of the year.

As far as warranty's go, all the plans we are looking at are guaranteed for 25 years or so, for faulty panels, and are all supposed to be producing in the 85-90% at that time. 10 year on workmanship. The panels all have their own micro converter, so if one goes down, it does not stop the entire system.

My mom just added solar to her home (which was total electric) and dropped her payments fro around 800 a month to just repayment and 9 dollar hook up fee (I think she said she paid under 300 last month).

If you can swing it, it would be a good thing as your not having to pay a company, that in my case, has the monopoly on power and can keep raising the prices to suit them. But to force someone to have to fork out that kind of cash is insane. Watch new home sales start dropping or sub par buildings being built to offset the costs.
800$ a month for electric bills?? Holy cow. That's unbelievable. No wonder yall are going so hard to reduce the cost.

My January bill last year was $292, my June bill with 100 degree weather was $257.
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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her payments fro around 800 a month to just repayment and 9 dollar hook up fee (I think she said she paid under 300 last month).


holy shit.


Granny must have a nice grow op going up there!
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:49 PM   #22 (permalink)
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800$ a month for electric bills?? Holy cow. That's unbelievable. No wonder yall are going so hard to reduce the cost.

My January bill last year was $292, my June bill with 100 degree weather was $257.
Yeah, My summer bill is usually in the $250 range but that's with scorching temps and a wife at home for the summer that thinks 72 inside is too hot.

It can be below $100 if the weather cooperates during the spring fall and winter.
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
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While I love the idea of solar to be independent of the evils of big government and corporations like the irreresponsible PGE, Having it mandated by government is just wrong.

Saying you must contract with xyz company is a violation of SCOTUS case law, specifically Hale V Hinkle USC (1906).
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Old 12-11-2018, 03:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Solar works great for a lot of ca. There is also a lot of people who live under tall trees, which usually means that your power bill isn't that high in the summer anyway. When you need the power in the winter, the panels are useless.

How about the coast where it's overcast a majority of most days?

Snow load?

Stupid

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Old 12-11-2018, 03:25 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Solar works great for a lot of ca. There is also a lot of people who live under tall trees, which usually means that your power bill isn't that high in the summer anyway. When you need the power in the winter, the panels are useless.


easy fix.
cut down all the trees...
then there will be no forest fires.
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