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Old 02-20-2019, 07:05 AM   #101 (permalink)
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almost like maybe design and materal selection has something to do with it.



Subtle. Very subtle.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:45 AM   #102 (permalink)
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City Bus or the train.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:47 AM   #103 (permalink)
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18 yr old in a 700 HP vehicle kind of messes up any safety plan.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:56 AM   #104 (permalink)
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City Bus or the train.
well those are the largest and heaviest vehicles you can get a ride in generally.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:35 AM   #105 (permalink)
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The damage to the vehicle has pretty low predictive value with respect to safety. Body panels don't kill occupants unless they are pushed into the passenger space. Very rapid acceleration does. The faster you accelerate the more injury you sustain. The question of safety is ultimately a question of acceleration or passenger space intrusion.

Jeep GC's are poorly engineered for things like passenger space intrusion. So almost anything is better than a GC in that regard. My link on page 4 is the best actual data on who dies in the real world. You can see actual results there to compare.

But for fun - let's consider whether the HD truck with limited crumple vs a Jeep GC with heavy crumple zone compression. (obviously the data shows they are not safer in general - more people die per mile driven in HD trucks than Tacomas or many midsize SUVs)

Let's do some math.

Truck at 6300lb and 55mph = 863763 Joules of kinetic energy.
JGC 5400lb at 85 mph = 1768317 Joules.

So the Jeep has about twice as much energy as the two collide. What matters to safety outside of intrusion into the driver space is the acceleration of each vehicle occupant. The energy of the impact is the same on both vehicles. (Newton's 3rd law). So the combined impact energy is 2632080j.

There are a variety of ways to proceed from here. I think the easiest is to simplify the example by considering each vehicle's velocity change on impact first.

In the F250 the impact causes a 67mph velocity change. Meaning that what actually happened is the truck went from 55mph forward to 12mph backward in a very short period of time. A total change in velocity of 67mph. The Jeep on the other hand went from 85mph to 12mph, a velocity change of 73mph.

The difference in mass of the two vehicles results in the heavier vehicle (F250) experiencing an observed impact speed of approximately 6mph less. Or about 8% less impact force on the passengers if you assume all else equal. This is why it's often the case that heavier vehicles are safer (all else equal) to lighter ones in multi vehicle crashes. The occupants have less acceleration.

Where the "all else equal" breaks down is the crumple zones of the vehicles. If the F250 hits a solid wall at 67mph and has a crumple zone of 12 inches and we assume average acceleration rate across the 12" crumple, the acceleration force on the occupants is about 150g's. Typical adult male can survive about 75g force most of the time. So the F250 driver hitting a solid wall with only 12" of vehicle crumple would most likely die. If you increase the crumple zone to 24", the force drops to about 75g and the crash is likely survivable. This all assumes driver is rigidly attached to the seat. Airbags and other safety devices would further reduce the acceleration force by extending the distance/time of acceleration. So with an airbag and a 24" crush of the vehicle mabye that force is dropped to 40 or 50g.

In the jeep you'll see higher forces. With 1' compression you're looking at more like 165g force. You get the idea.

Where the jeep potentially becomes a lot safer is if the jeep crushes 3 feet while the truck only compresses 1 foot. If that is the case the jeep occupant would only experience 55g force while the truck occupant experiences 150g force. Truck driver dies. Jeep driver lives. Jeep is safer. <- that example is with both hitting a stationary object.

When the truck hits the jeep, both the truck and the Jeep SHARE the Jeep's and truck's combined crumple zones effects. So in that instance the truck then goes back to having a lower acceleration rate than the jeep by about 8%. All else equal (airbags, etc), the truck is safer in the head on collision. And this is where the idea of heavier vehicle is safer comes from. All else equal - in a head on collision the heavier vehicle will almost always have less acceleration force than the lighter one.

Where the truck is less safe is almost every other type of collision. F250 vs F250 = both driver's die. Jeep vs Jeep = both driver's live. In F250 vs Jeep = both drivers live. So the result is this: If you're in a Jeep/F250 crash, you would prefer to be in the F250 as between the two vehicles. However, if you're hitting an F250 you're far better off to be in a Jeep than another F250. And if you're hitting another Jeep - you're also better of in a Jeep. In all scenarios, the jeep driver survives. In 1/3 the F250 driver dies. That's why the jeep is likely the safer option overall while the F250 driver is safer in the specific accident between the two. And that is by far the most important takeaway from all of this. The vehicle safest in a specific instance is not the safest overall. That's why HD trucks are not as safe as vehicles like an RX350 in the real world. Science matches perfectly with empirical data. If your goal is to not die in an accident overall - the truck is not the safest choice. That's a demonstrable fact regardless of what you or I may think.

^ That is why the real world data is more valuable in predicting safety than lab data. The real world is a complex system that is far too complex to even pretend to model in a lab experiment. The lab helps a lot to increase safety of all vehicles. But the test results are not directly indicative of how those vehicles will actually perform outside in the complex world of crashes. In a vehicle/vehicle crash - I want to be in the heaviest and tallest vehicle possible (the car that goes up always wins over the one that goes down - but that's an entirely different calculation set). But in a crash with a stationary object - I want to be in the car with the longest effective crumple zone that doesn't compromise the passenger space. In that scenario I'll take a unibody SUV. The great thing about empirical data is that you don't need to find evidence to support the results. You can simply look at the data and get a good idea of what vehicles are safe by looking at what vehicles people don't die in very often.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:37 AM   #106 (permalink)
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The damage to the vehicle has pretty low predictive value with respect to safety. Body panels don't kill occupants unless they are pushed into the passenger space. Very rapid acceleration does. The faster you accelerate the more injury you sustain. The question of safety is ultimately a question of acceleration or passenger space intrusion.
the word you're looking for is "deceleration"
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:53 AM   #107 (permalink)
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the word you're looking for is "deceleration"
I used the correct term. Motion is all relative. Acceleration, negative acceleration, deceleration - all describe the same thing in this instance. "Deceleration" has a implied vector meaning in common use that it's moving toward zero. So it's useful as a shorthand explanation of something slowing down, but here that's not really accurate representation of the F250. Relative to the road, it went from forward to past zero and moving backward relative to it's initial direction and then came to rest probably a few feet back from the point of impact.

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Old 02-20-2019, 09:54 AM   #108 (permalink)
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I used the correct term. Motion is all relative. Acceleration, negative acceleration, deceleration - all describe the same thing in this instance. Although deceleration has a implied meaning that it's moving toward zero, where that's not really accurate as a common representation of the F250. Relative to the road, it went from forward to past zero and moving backward relative to it's initial direction and then came to rest probably a few feet back from the point of impact.
you really believe the bullshit you type, don't you?
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:14 AM   #109 (permalink)
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you really believe the bullshit you type, don't you?
I'm a physicist by education. My day job, not so much. Words have meaning. Some have very specific meaning in context. Using them correctly is important to efficiently explain something. I could write something stupid like "trucks are safer cause my daddy's cousins' sister said so. And she's a toll collector part time so she knows. Go 'merica!" but that wouldn't be accurate or of much value. It seems a lot more useful to explain why trucks are relatively safer than many cars, but not the safest vehicle choice overall.

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Old 02-20-2019, 10:17 AM   #110 (permalink)
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I'm a physicist by education. My day job, not so much. Words have meaning. Some have very specific meaning in context. Using them correctly is important to efficiently explain something. I could write something stupid like "trucks are safer cause 'merica!" but that wouldn't be accurate or of much value. It seems a lot more useful to explain why trucks are relatively safer than many cars, but not the safest vehicle choice overall.
Oh we know you don't take word meaning lightly.

Roxor.

Now stfu.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:22 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'm a physicist by education. My day job, not so much. Words have meaning. Some have very specific meaning in context. Using them correctly is important to efficiently explain something. I could write something stupid like "trucks are safer cause my daddy's cousins' sister said so. And she's a toll collector part time so she knows. Go 'merica!" but that wouldn't be accurate or of much value. It seems a lot more useful to explain why trucks are relatively safer than many cars, but not the safest vehicle choice overall.
too bad your education didn't teach you that deceleration, not acceleration, are what causes injuries in a collision

I suppose when you jump off a building it isn't the sudden stop that kills you but your acceleration bouncing upwards
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:29 AM   #112 (permalink)
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too bad your education didn't teach you that deceleration, not acceleration, are what causes injuries in a collision

I suppose when you jump off a building it isn't the sudden stop that kills you but your acceleration bouncing upwards
I don't think you understand what acceleration means. Acceleration is a vector quantity that is defined as the rate at which an object changes its velocity. An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity. Stopping is accelerating.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:29 AM   #113 (permalink)
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too bad your education didn't teach you that deceleration, not acceleration, are what causes injuries in a collision

I suppose when you jump off a building it isn't the sudden stop that kills you but your acceleration bouncing upwards
Not to say that the rest of his post has any truth, but he's right.

You're sitting still relative to the car, no acceleration. The car is going 65 relative to the ground at a constant velocity, so no acceleration. The car stops because it hit a brick wall, and you accelerate to some velocity. You then hit the windshield and begin to accelerate on a vector opposite the direction of motion. Therefore, negative acceleration.

That's a pretty dumb technicality to pick a fight over though.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:32 AM   #114 (permalink)
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18 yr old in a 700 HP vehicle kind of messes up any safety plan.
Seriously. Whomever put that teenager in a 700hp vehicle is a fucking moron.

I saw a guy post up about giving his 16yr old daughter a C7 Z06 Corvette for her first car the other day on a Facebook page... I just shook my head.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:12 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Not to say that the rest of his post has any truth, but he's right.
x2 on that...common language makes us think the terms mean 'get faster' or 'get slower', but truth is you're doing the same thing in opposite directions.

If you're shot out of a cannon in a parabolic arc, you have an acceleration in the vertical axis of -9.8 m/s^2. Part of that time your speed going up is decreasing, and part of it your speed coming down is increasing, but acceleration doesn't change.

Semantics rule

"speed going up" and "speed going down" of course interchangeable with "velocity"; speed with a vector component :blackflipoff:
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:35 AM   #116 (permalink)
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too bad your education didn't teach you that deceleration, not acceleration, are what causes injuries in a collision

I suppose when you jump off a building it isn't the sudden stop that kills you but your acceleration bouncing upwards
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I don't think you understand what acceleration means. Acceleration is a vector quantity that is defined as the rate at which an object changes its velocity. An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity. Stopping is accelerating.
Roxor hardonboy is correct. Acceleration can be a negative as well as positive.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:24 PM   #117 (permalink)
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I good argument can be made for something taller. All the safety equipment in a car is great until a pickup truck hits you sqare in the driver side windows where there's very little protection.

That said, I DD a motorcycle or a 370Z so I'm dead either way......

I also see where the bumpers on both of my trucks line up with most cars and I believe I'd go clear through anything that was sedan level because bumpers are over the hood level.
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:02 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Seriously. Whomever put that teenager in a 700hp vehicle is a fucking moron.



I saw a guy post up about giving his 16yr old daughter a C7 Z06 Corvette for her first car the other day on a Facebook page... I just shook my head.


Itís messing up the kid to GIVE them a car

Especially one they she is guaranteed to wreck

My parents didnít give me anything except paying for the insurance , which I didnít realize at the time how much that cost

But they also didnít care what car I bought with my own money

So I found the most powerful car I could buy for $500

A 69 four door thunderbird with a 429 thunder jet engine , same engine as the 429 cobra jet
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:42 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Seriously. Whomever put that teenager in a 700hp vehicle is a fucking moron.

I saw a guy post up about giving his 16yr old daughter a C7 Z06 Corvette for her first car the other day on a Facebook page... I just shook my head.
18 yr old Driver ( of his parents 700hp GC) got arrested for reckless driving in May as well- was driving on a provisional license drunk underage... Here's to hoping he never gets a license back...
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Iím a huge believer in the safety of the L322 range rovers and the first gen BMW X5. Both have extremely low fatality rates. My 2011 Range Rover does about 17mpg mixed and 20-21 on the highway doing 80. Slowing to 65 could prob get it to 22. Even the sport and LR3/lr4 are ridiculously safe. I would absolutely trade 5-10mpg for better safety.




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Old 02-20-2019, 06:46 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Iím a huge believer in the safety of the L322 range rovers and the first gen BMW X5. Both have extremely low fatality rates. My 2011 Range Rover does about 17mpg mixed and 20-21 on the highway doing 80. Slowing to 65 could prob get it to 22. Even the sport and LR3/lr4 are ridiculously safe. I would absolutely trade 5-10mpg for better safety.




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Part of the reason for the low fatality rate in luxury vehicles is because rich people donít drive like idiots as frequently as poor people
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:05 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Part of the reason for the low fatality rate in luxury vehicles is because rich people donít drive like idiots as frequently as poor people
Yeah, i think that's contributing some static in the RX350 figures- a significant majority of the drivers are old rich women, who probably don't put that many miles on them either...
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:14 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Iím a huge believer in the safety of the L322 range rovers and the first gen BMW X5. Both have extremely low fatality rates. My 2011 Range Rover does about 17mpg mixed and 20-21 on the highway doing 80. Slowing to 65 could prob get it to 22. Even the sport and LR3/lr4 are ridiculously safe. I would absolutely trade 5-10mpg for better safety.




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Also take into account that they are in the shop far to often to be driven, so the fatality rate goes way down...
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:38 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Part of the reason for the low fatality rate in luxury vehicles is because rich people donít drive like idiots as frequently as poor people


They are built like tanks too. And yeah Iíd disagree a little. Iíve seen plenty of them wrecked for stupid reasons. Money doesnít always mean brains.


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Old 02-20-2019, 11:41 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Is this still pirate? Volvo wagon or old mercedes diesel, 4BT/NV4500 swap, with just enough height to stuff superduty 60/10.5 axles under it.
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