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Old 04-16-2019, 01:03 PM   #26 (permalink)
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My brother had one put in a few years ago, his cost was about 16k (but got about 6k of that back in taxes), but he's not heating a pool room or anything. He's been happy with it so far.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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How much more efficient is water than air REALLY?
I don't think that really plays into it much. The real difference is that ground temperature is pretty stable. In the dead of winter when it's 10 below out, an air source heat pump won't do anything, but a ground source system will work the same whether it's 10 below or 50 above. In the summer, same deal in reverse; above a certain air temp, the A/C just won't work anymore.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You will use about the same power or a little more than what a ac unit running steady would cost you.
Why do you say this? Why would it use as much as a standard AC unit?
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:03 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I put these systems in for a living. The reason water work better than air for condensing the Freon is itís always a lot closer to the output temp you are desiring. Greatly increasing your sear rating, thatís where the efficiency comes from.
The systems I install have a preheat tank that is heated by the superdeheater it heats a tank of water to about 110-112 max. Then from there it goes into another water heater where itís heated to itís final 125. So your water heater only heats for 10-15 degrees of rise. The superdeheater is a small coil of copper tubing that runs around the compressor motor. Itís takes the laden heat from the motor, so it works while in cooling or heating also increasing the life of the motor by cooling it.
I hope when you say 300 feet of grid you mean multi loops of 300. Here we only get 1 ton of recovery for one 300 foot horizontal well, you may be able to get 1.5 tons per loop depend on soil conditions (high moisture and clay being ideal condition).
The largest system Iíve done is a 12 ton water to water system with radiant heat and air handlers for cooling. He heats his giant 15k sq ft house to 72 degrees in the coldest 3 months for about 650$ electric, it would be about 2k a month in natural gas. That 650 includes all his electric use. This is just outside of Lake Tahoe basin for outdoor temp information.
Sorry to write a book but if you want more direct information just ask, Iíll do my best to answer. I believe these systems work and am in the process of installing my own systems.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The systems I install have a preheat tank that is heated by the superdeheater it heats a tank of water to about 110-112 max. Then from there it goes into another water heater where itís heated to itís final 125. So your water heater only heats for 10-15 degrees of rise. The superdeheater is a small coil of copper tubing that runs around the compressor motor. Itís takes the laden heat from the motor, so it works while in cooling or heating also increasing the life of the motor by cooling it.
For fuck's sake. It's a desuperheater, and it doesn't take "laden" heat from the motor. The motor is cooled by the refrigerant. The desuperheater takes heat from the refrigerant just past the pump, most of which is a function of compression, not motor waste heat. It does work whenever the pump is running, but it makes a lot less sense in heating mode, because it robs heat that is intended to heat the living space. In cooling mode, all of the heat is waste heat.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:17 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Why do you say this? Why would it use as much as a standard AC unit?
You're still running the compressor, correct? All you're doing is replacing the fan/condenser with a big as condenser in the ground, so you just won't be spinning the fan any more. But now won't you also being running recirculating pumps for the water and pool heaters?
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:42 PM   #32 (permalink)
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That seems pretty damn expensive to me. Our February power bill was 125 bucks. That's an all electric house with a woodburning stove. I feel even mo better about it now, Thanks. Quartz infrared fan heaters for the win.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:28 PM   #33 (permalink)
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He might be an earth muffin that's looking to reduce his carbon buttprint.









Wood stove!!!!
Heater hasnít worked in my house since we moved in (14 years ago)!!!!!
45 degrees is not cold!!!! Get a Fkn sweatshirt and blanket!!!!!



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Old 04-16-2019, 09:01 PM   #34 (permalink)
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New England may not be the best location for solar but if you'e got some decent un exposure then I'd look into that to sell bak electricity to the power company. Look into the Tesla system, I've heard some cool things about it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:17 AM   #36 (permalink)
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New England may not be the best location for solar but if you'e got some decent un exposure then I'd look into that to sell bak electricity to the power company. Look into the Tesla system, I've heard some cool things about it.
Not a viable option for me. I had a company out last summer. It does not make financial sense for me because my power consumption is more than 2x the average home. Additionally we are in a terrible area for solar.

The cost/return made no sense.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:21 AM   #37 (permalink)
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That seems pretty damn expensive to me.
A friend who just put it in and had his first winter is telling me he expects the pay off to be between 3-4 years, he originally calculated 5 years but its more efficient than advertised.. He was using 1500 gallons of propane a year AND a wood stove to off set the propane.

Propane is just that expensive then add in your hot water heater.


For example, this company claims the 80 gallon hot water heater, which is included, cost $6/mo to operate.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:22 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I hope when you say 300 feet of grid you mean multi loops of 300. Here we only get 1 ton of recovery for one 300 foot horizontal well, you may be able to get 1.5 tons per loop depend on soil conditions (high moisture and clay being ideal condition).
I don't know. He told me they run 300' of trench for a system.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:28 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Wood stove!!!!
I have a wood furnace run in parallel to my propane. I also have an endless supply of wood. All I need to do is sacrifice a shit load of time, wear and tear on my beat up body, gas, diesel, saw/tractor/splitter upkeep and run wood 2-3 times a week all winter to get a very warm home with a dirty ass basement.

Wood is a pain, its a lifestyle do to the time/work. but I have done it and am prepping to do it this coming winter.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:48 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Sounds fleecingly expensive at 100k, what is that like 1000/hr for 40 hours of work and a 6000% markup on material.

#notfair. #heatisahumanright. #checkyournumbersagainstthebassintruckcalculator
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:52 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I miss screwey.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:14 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Obviously, late to the party.

There is a small museum near me that installed it when they renovated several years ago. Seems like I was told $36K. About 3 times the standard heat pump quote they got as I remember, and more efficient during outlier cold temps. They have had no issues with their system, installed around 2000.

Our climate is probably more mild than yours, very rarely into the teens in the winter. Obviously, they can't use wood heat, with the grime that comes from it. We don't have natural gas available. While they did what they could with insulation, fact is a building that old doesn't have the room in the walls to get super insulated, and with the cathedral ceilings they don't have an attic to use as an insulated space. They believe it was the right choice.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:30 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I have a wood furnace run in parallel to my propane. I also have an endless supply of wood. All I need to do is sacrifice a shit load of time, wear and tear on my beat up body, gas, diesel, saw/tractor/splitter upkeep and run wood 2-3 times a week all winter to get a very warm home with a dirty ass basement.



Wood is a pain, its a lifestyle do to the time/work. but I have done it and am prepping to do it this coming winter.


I have been heating with wood primarily for 10 years now. You are correct it is a lifestyle. I actually enjoy it until about the middle of March. Thats when I start to get done with it. But its time to start turning logs into cordwood again. I currently have about 8.5 acres of trees for wood. Plus cutting permits in the NF are so cheap I dont think I will ever run out. Also as a bonus, a hunting buddy has a friend that runs a tree company and asked if he could drop rounds on his large lot in exchange for a lot of tree work. He said yes and gets about 2-4 cords of rounds delivered a week. A few trips with the trailer and I should be done.

This was a mild winter for us so I have a decent start for next winter. Only have to do about 3-4 cords. Then everything else is gravy. Hoping to have about 10 cords split and stacked going into winter.




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Old 04-17-2019, 04:28 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I've installed somewhere around 30 of these systems, including one in my own home. All were air to air and a couple had desuperheaters for hot water. in my opinion the desuperheaters are not worth the labor to plumb them. Tankless is the way to go for hot water. Other than that geo exchange is the best way to heat and cool if you can afford the upfront cost. Aside from that Bosch is making a baddass air source heat pump now that i've seen still heating at 0 degrees outdoor ambient.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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You're still running the compressor, correct? All you're doing is replacing the fan/condenser with a big as condenser in the ground, so you just won't be spinning the fan any more. But now won't you also being running recirculating pumps for the water and pool heaters?
Yes, but on a hot day, the AC is trying to use hot air to cool the condenser, where as a geothermal system is cooling the condenser with relatively cool water. The energy input should be lower for a geothermal system, all else being equal.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:55 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I miss screwey.
Me too, but that's the wrong kind of geothermal.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:17 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I've had a Water Furnace Geo thermal system since 2003. My house is 1800sqf and all electric...average electric bill is about $190/mo. Up until about a year ago my geo unit electric was metered separately from the rest of the house because my electric co gave a discounted rate for geo. Now I just receive a flat monthly discount. I figured it cost me just over $1.40 a day to heat and cool my house. I live close to St louis so we get 0 degrees in the winter and 100s in summer...I never open windows and keep heat at 68 and A/C at 71. Cost was $14k installed.

Only issues I had with the system is I had to have the A coil replaced due to a leak and just the other day I one of the copper pipes (in the unit) for the desuperheater (or whatever the fuck it's called) sprung a leak.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
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My folks have geothermal, 2 systems, upstairs and down stairs.

I don't know costs, but they have 3 or 4 wells for their system(s) not a grid. They have plenty of room for a grid, but dad said the well was more efficient, so that's what they did.

Their big issue was a leak in one of the wells. The system couldn't maintain pressure. It was "fixed," sounded hack to me, but I don't know enough about the stuff to know if it was hack or not, by tapping into the house's water supply. Apparently that maintained the pressure and the system worked again, until the leak got worse, and my folks got a several hundred dollar water bill from all the water they were literally pouring down their geothermal well.

Multiple "fixes" were attempted, none were more than a short term repair.

Eventually they had to drill a new well, as there was no fixing the leak in the existing well.

Seems like a huge pain in the rear, but apparently it works now.

I was kind of considering geothermal for myself eventually, until my folks' issues. I think I'm going to spend that money on insulation instead.
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