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Old 05-17-2019, 12:07 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Does that mean you will be negotiating your own contract?
When I came to work here I had to sign some paperwork letting the union do all wage and benefit negotiations. I had to sign that before I joined the union. The only way I can negotiate is to go salaried. And that's not happening.
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:11 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Not all unions. I really cant think of any downside for me with the one I'm in.
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Absolutely this for me also.
If you read the letter I posted in post #15 it is a perfect example of why Unions are bad for everyone.

One bullshit union on quest to unionize Whole Foods cost a state 20,000 jobs, the biggest economic expansion for a state in many decades.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:50 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I'm a little surprised that the union is watching who is pulling electrical work permits.
The business agents ( electricians voted to run the local) have a responsibility to the signatory contractors to make sure the union workers hold up their end of the agreement...So when work is slower that may check on permits..Every member agreed not to do any work in competition with the contractors. This does not include work done for family or residential side jobs for money..I was pulling permits for medical offices, restaurants, truck repair garage etc...I was retired but still a union member working as a contractor, I was violating the rules and got caught..I was told to become a signatory contractor or drop out of the union. I left and never another word was said about it..
This wasn't the first time I butted heads with the union..IBEW construction locals have no work guarantees, no seniority, you can be laid off at any time ,no reason needed...When I ran work ,occasionally, electricians who I thought were not up to speed were turned around when they set foot on job site.Or I gave them their check, a layoff,well before the job was finished..This didn't always go over well in the union hall..I sent a woman electrician back to the hall , that really didn't go well but the contractors always backed me up.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:30 PM   #54 (permalink)
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thanks for the explination
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:48 AM   #55 (permalink)
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There is more than one kind of union. There are unions where the craftsman works for the union, and the union supplies manpower to a company. There are unions that represent craftsman who are employed by a company. There are certainly variations of these 2, but I think this is the big 2.

Unions where the craftsman works for the union seem to have the worst reputation. The union bosses often become worse to work for than the company bosses. The companies have zero concern for the union tradesman because they have little investment in the worker. Workers often go long periods of time with no work. Relationships often means more than ability.


The union where I worked, the CWA, was often more of a partner than an adversary. This tended to work well at lower levels where the supervisors and union reps generally reached a reasonable settlement. Severe discipline (including termination) didn't happen frequently, but it did happen. The managers in a termination case were expected to provide documentation similar to what would be needed in court. Managers didn't like to get to this step because they would be going against reps who had much more contract training than the manager. it was a big time suck for manager to prepare a termination case. Often, a good field manager did not have the skills needed to prove everything on paper. Often, a field manager made a wrong first step that wrecked the case. As an example, a field tech got into an argument with a supervisor at a work location away from the work center. The tech got mad enough to push the supervisor, and threatened to give him an ass whipping. The supervisor sent the tech back to the work center and then suspended him. When the supervisor finally consulted with his boss, they wanted to (and did) fire the tech. The tech got his job back because he had already been disciplined. The laws of double jeopardy applied. The managers screwed up. The union was/is obligated to defend the employee and apply the rules of the contract. In my experience, when an employee was fired, and later got his job back, the company had not followed the rules in some way.

Having worked for the same company as a manager and a craftsman, let me say I was appreciative of our union and was glad to have them in the fight. Our craftsmen got high pay as a result of the union negotiating our contracts. They had great benefits. There was a good set of workplace rules, and everybody knew what they were. As a manager, the company looked to me to give up something when times were hard. My uniform allowance was taken several times. My bonus and raise was taken once (in 20 years). I lost my cradle to grave benefits package several years before the craft people did. I had some asshole bosses and no avenues contest any decision they made. I could tell the difference between being represented and not being represented, and it wasn't good.

A lot of the anti-union statements in the thread are true. It too bad, but men are corruptible. FWIW, I don't think it is a coincidence that the middle class has lost purchasing power while the upper class is richer than ever. The trend closely follows the fall of the unions.
Double Jeopardy applies to criminal cases tried by the government, not job related matters.

Regarding your last sentence, how does that compare to the average union leadership numbers? I'm

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Yes, simple, he violated a signed agreement...If it was not a union agreement, you would have no story...

When I retired from the IBEW 14 years ago I had three retirement plans and a 401K..two of the pensions I was vested in, so they were mine..the third pension, a small one funded from a percentage of union dues was contingent on certain union rules I agreed to...When I retired, I started a one man electrical contracting shop...I was not a signatory union contractor...After about a year the local union business agent called me to ask why I was pulling electrical work permits from the city...My union agreement was never to do any work in competition with signatory contractors...I told him to go after the union guys still working for contractors and pulling permits for side jobs...And I also said goodbye...They never bothered me again but I was unable to collect my small pension due to me violating my side of the agreement..This in no way affected my larger pensions and 401K....
In theory, if an IBEW apprentice finishes his training, he owes the union 10 year of membership in good standing or can be held liable for training costs. it is in writing...
I'm no friend of most unions that's for sure but rules are rules and some non union employees must sign agreements no to do anything that could be considered competition to the company they work for...
That sucks, but at least you took it like a man.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:11 AM   #56 (permalink)
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That sucks, but at least you took it like a man.
The pension I lost was the so called "International", funded by a portion of union dues.It wasn't much ,maybe 50 bucks a month...I knew the rules when I signed on with the union thugs..IBEW requires you verbally swear your oath, it goes something like this:
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"I, (your name) , in the presence of members of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, promise and agree to conform to and abide by the Constitution and laws of the I.B.E.W. and its local unions. I will further the purposes for which the I.B.E.W. is instituted. I will bear true allegiance to it and will not sacrifice its interests in any manner."
No matter what, I had a good run with the union,got to work in all sorts of crazy situations,work on the most complicated and dangerous projects, meet some truly bizarre workers, stood with Mohawk union iron workers during topping out parties...All it cost me was union dues...
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:21 AM   #57 (permalink)
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If you read the letter I posted in post #15 it is a perfect example of why Unions are bad for everyone.

One bullshit union on quest to unionize Whole Foods cost a state 20,000 jobs, the biggest economic expansion for a state in many decades.



All I was saying was in my area doing what I know how to do my options are union or non union. For me there are no downfalls to being union and plenty if I were non union.

But once again ca and specifically the bay area is not a good representation of the rest of the country.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:39 AM   #58 (permalink)
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...All it cost me was union dues...
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All I was saying was in my area doing what I know how to do my options are union or non union. For me there are no downfalls to being union and plenty if I were non union.

But once again ca and specifically the bay area is not a good representation of the rest of the country.
Both of these are good examples of how people look at things from their perspective only. I'm not slighting either of you, just using it as an example. A Union cat shows up and says "Join the union, you'll get X,Y, and Z if you join. Plus you'll get PAID if we ever go on strike!" To someone who has never left their home town or never thought much about how things work it sounds like a great deal. Get paid to work, get paid not to work, "representation" against any company that tries to fire you etc. It seems like a pretty sweet deal on the front end.

On the back end the fat cats at the top suck in millions of dollars per year in salary and benefits, extort the companies they support causing consumer prices to rise, and pour millions upon millions of dollars of dues into the coffers of politicians via political campaign contributions. Many of those politicians are nowhere near aligned with the personal beliefs of the rank and file. I find all of that unpalatable. I was in a union as a young adult and hated it. They eventually threw the union out after I left.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:10 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Both of these are good examples of how people look at things from their perspective only. I'm not slighting either of you, just using it as an example. A Union cat shows up and says "Join the union, you'll get X,Y, and Z if you join. Plus you'll get PAID if we ever go on strike!" To someone who has never left their home town or never thought much about how things work it sounds like a great deal. Get paid to work, get paid not to work, "representation" against any company that tries to fire you etc. It seems like a pretty sweet deal on the front end.

On the back end the fat cats at the top suck in millions of dollars per year in salary and benefits, extort the companies they support causing consumer prices to rise, and pour millions upon millions of dollars of dues into the coffers of politicians via political campaign contributions. Many of those politicians are nowhere near aligned with the personal beliefs of the rank and file. I find all of that unpalatable. I was in a union as a young adult and hated it. They eventually threw the union out after I left.


I understand the comparison you are going for and from what I've gathered on pirate it may be a good example of how a lot of unions are run. However labor unions in ca dont seem to be that way. Strikes are extremely rare.... I've been in 17 years and have never been on strike. We get $25/ day if we were to actually show up to a sanctioned strike, our union president does not make any more then a field superintendent however does earn a different pension if he holds his elected position 3 terms???, I can fire anybody at any time without reprocusions.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:12 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Construction trade unions are a lot different than other unions...And in all unions, as far as I know, the officials who run it are union members are voted in my the membership... They become fat cats because most of the membership can't be bothered to attend meetings and get involved.. So the union business becomes the business of the few who do attend meetings and control what goes on...So it's just like government, everyone bitches but too few are actually involved..
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Old 05-25-2019, 11:21 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Construction trade unions are a lot different than other unions...And in all unions, as far as I know, the officials who run it are union members are voted in my the membership... They become fat cats because most of the membership can't be bothered to attend meetings and get involved.. So the union business becomes the business of the few who do attend meetings and control what goes on...So it's just like government, everyone bitches but too few are actually involved..
No not that different than other Unions.
I have been a Steelworker/ formally Rubber Worker for 30 years.
When you go to the meetings there is a hand full of members and mostly Executive Board. All older guys but in all fairness they were the young ones years ago. The younger guys never show up, even during contract negations. They do not even show up to vote. Then they bitch about the contract. The
local Union President is a regular employee but does not work any hours in the plant. The Executive board do work in the plant but get hours off to do their Union work. Some 20 hours others less depending on the job. All of the Union Stewards work their regular hours.
Strike pay is one of the worst misconceptions than any other thing. Yes if there is a strike you will get paid. Not nearly as much as you normally would and it will only last until the strike fund has run out.
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Old 05-25-2019, 11:43 AM   #62 (permalink)
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When I came to work here I had to sign some paperwork letting the union do all wage and benefit negotiations. I had to sign that before I joined the union. The only way I can negotiate is to go salaried. And that's not happening.
Did you quit or not?
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:43 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I’m out, sent my paperwork to payroll to quit deducting union dues. I have been in Colorado all week, so not much pirate time.
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