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Old 10-14-2019, 07:52 AM   #276 (permalink)
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Hell, tuned Yukon Denalis with the 6.2 can break into the 13s with a tune to clear up the shitty slow, soft shifting.

With a tune, I wouldn't be surprised if my Yukon Denali would be pretty damn close to my IS 350 F Sport in the 1/4. Stock vs. stock, I think it would be close 0-60 but I think the Lexus would pull on it pretty hard after 60.


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Old 10-14-2019, 12:48 PM   #277 (permalink)
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And 2018 Ferraris do 10's with top speeds over 200 mph..Silly comparisons, ya think?
Did you actually keep up with the conversation?
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:58 PM   #278 (permalink)
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Yea and it was a shitty car. I love ferraris, but if a 308 was ~$60k in 1985, that comes to what, ~150k in 2019? Soo still a shitload more than the c8 vette. And it would get its ass absolutely whooped by it. Just because something had it 'first' doesnt mean they did it best
List was more like 75K IIRC. I got mine for just over 50 - haggled hard and it did not hurt that I had an attache case filled with 100s with me.

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A 80's Ferrari like a 308, not their best one, does the 1/4 in 14.6 or so..152 MPH top speed...Not so fast by modern standards but obviously faster than a Honda minivan and can corner a lot faster..And faster than 80's Vettes..
The 308s had a low HP rating, especially compared to today's vehicles, but there is a difference. They were geared such that the motor could always be between 5500 and 7500 rpm. Modern cars seldom use those high HP numbers, and when they do it is not for long.

And it handled like a go-cart. Direct, flat, and predictable - very well balanced.

Of course autos have gotten better over 30 years. Also a lot more complex; the price you pay, I guess.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:14 AM   #279 (permalink)
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Ford is so scared of the C8R that they bailed out of IMSA racing for next year. I really hope that the GT's get bought by a private race group and come back. Will be some good racing.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:41 AM   #280 (permalink)
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Ford is so scared of the C8R that they bailed out of IMSA racing for next year. I really hope that the GT's get bought by a private race group and come back. Will be some good racing.
Want to go in halfsies?
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:36 PM   #281 (permalink)
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Want to go in halfsies?
I think buying the old outgoing C7R would have better chances of winning.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:55 PM   #282 (permalink)
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List was more like 75K IIRC. I got mine for just over 50 - haggled hard and it did not hurt that I had an attache case filled with 100s with me.



The 308s had a low HP rating, especially compared to today's vehicles, but there is a difference. They were geared such that the motor could always be between 5500 and 7500 rpm. Modern cars seldom use those high HP numbers, and when they do it is not for long.

And it handled like a go-cart. Direct, flat, and predictable - very well balanced.

Of course autos have gotten better over 30 years. Also a lot more complex; the price you pay, I guess.
Every new Ferrari model has it rated HP at 7500 rpm or higher, a few are 8500 rpm...But the least expensive is about $220,000...
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Old 10-16-2019, 01:07 PM   #283 (permalink)
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For lack of a better thread for it...

I was behind a Corvette ZR1 and a Jeep SRT8 Trackhawk right before lunch when a red light caught us. I really wanted to see that go down, then a damn cop got caught at the red on the crossing street. Sad panda.
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:11 PM   #284 (permalink)
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Ford is so scared of the C8R that they bailed out of IMSA racing for next year. I really hope that the GT's get bought by a private race group and come back. Will be some good racing.
I'm sure Ford is back to the drawing board. They aren't going to let this go unanswered for too long
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:38 PM   #285 (permalink)
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I'm sure Ford is back to the drawing board. They aren't going to let this go unanswered for too long
Ford is rumored to be getting into the top IMSA DPi class for 2021-22, as they'll be going hybrid. Another piece to that rumor is that by then the DPi cars should be allowed to race as LMP cars in WEC, allowing them to run at Le Mans.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:57 PM   #286 (permalink)
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I'm sure Ford is back to the drawing board. They aren't going to let this go unanswered for too long
Sucks for Ford that the year they bring back the Mustang GT500, GM releases this beast. I realize they aren't really direct competitors (that would be the Camaro ZL1), but still the C8 Corvette is stealing all the hype and headlines that would've probably gone to the GT509 otherwise.

The C8 Stingray is already evidently putting up legit supercar times with a 2.8 0-60, near 11 flat 1/4 mile, and well over 1.00g... the ZR1 version of this thing is gonna be flat out fucking scary.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:42 AM   #287 (permalink)
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I'm sure Ford is back to the drawing board. They aren't going to let this go unanswered for too long
The GT is the only car they have in the lineup that works tho. You can't race IMSA GTLM in a mustang. Yes they race in GS I haven't watched any this year since my DVR won't record any IMSA races set by series. The Michelin Pilot Challenge was a fun race to watch tho. Sure I have heard the same thing that they are going to step up to the next level and go Daytona Prototype but
a: that class is competitive AF and they will get their asses handed to them for 2+ years.
b: car guys love watching race cars that look like the car they can buy. A DP is not that car. Cool as hell but not the race on Sunday sell on Monday mentality.

I caught 5 mins of a nascar race and was shocked they now look like cars again.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:47 AM   #288 (permalink)
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Ford is rumored to be getting into the top IMSA DPi class for 2021-22, as they'll be going hybrid. Another piece to that rumor is that by then the DPi cars should be allowed to race as LMP cars in WEC, allowing them to run at Le Mans.
Correct, that's their plan


I hope the GT sticks around for a bit with privateers. That's a sexy car
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:11 AM   #289 (permalink)
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Ben Keating has one but either can't or won't race it in the WEC, depends on what you read. Ford's current plan is to get the GT in the hands of some privateers to run the big US IMSA races, Daytona, Sebring, Watkins and Petit.

Not sure if Keating will go back to Le Mans or not. I believe the issue he had with the WEC is that he didn't get any help with travel costs. I think he's shelving the GTD program so you might see that car show up at the aforementioned races.

Ford wants Hybrid and a global platform for prototype for 2022 so they can race at Le Mans. I seriously doubt they'll get the latter since the FIA and ACO don't want to admit that they can't make rules worth a shit and that IMSA has a much better plan with the DPi format. The Hypercar regs are going to be a mess and if Aston actually shows up I'll be surprised. The Hypercar garbage is just to keep Toyota happy.

Personally, I would've liked to have at least seen technical regs for the proposed GTE Plus category that would've seen modified GTE machinery doing 3:25-3:30 laps at Le Mans (roughly 25-30 seconds faster than the current cars.)

Now, enough of that. The new C8 is the real fucking deal. I don't care for the looks of the street car Stingray, but the C8R is badass. If the Z06 and ZR1's take the design cues from the race car, that thing is going to look sick as hell and give anything on the road a run for it's money. Say what you want, but the front engine Vette was taken about as far as it could go. Chevrolet built a car to compete and beat the best Europe has to offer. By the looks of it, they might just have succeeded.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:44 AM   #290 (permalink)
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On track test from Matt Farah

(maybe it's already been posted some where)

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Old 10-22-2019, 07:44 AM   #291 (permalink)
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...c8-power-dyno/

Apparently the new motor makes a wee bit more than the SAE rating.
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Old 10-22-2019, 08:06 AM   #292 (permalink)
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I caught 5 mins of a nascar race and was shocked they now look like cars again.
They look like A car, just not any car you can buy.



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Old 10-22-2019, 08:08 AM   #293 (permalink)
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...c8-power-dyno/

Apparently the new motor makes a wee bit more than the SAE rating.
I'm not surprised. The acceleration times being claimed simply didn't make any sense for the claimed power/weight measurements.
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Old 10-22-2019, 08:53 AM   #294 (permalink)
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I find the 15% power train loss claim nonsensical. How does a drivetrain only take 45hp to turn in a 300hp car, but then 90hp in a 600hp car?
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Old 10-22-2019, 09:45 AM   #295 (permalink)
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I find the 15% power train loss claim nonsensical. How does a drivetrain only take 45hp to turn in a 300hp car, but then 90hp in a 600hp car?
more horsepower is going to cause more drag on the components downt he line. and a % is the best fit for an educated guess.

most moving parts can be assigned a % efficiency, and whether 300 or 600 hp the % is close to the same , the efficiency loss is mostly in heat. ever notice high hp cars build heat quicker. and therefore need bigger cooling systems. if a car only lost say 45hp due to drive-train no matter actual hp, there wouldn't be the need for larger cooling.

there are allot better ways to explain, that i cant articulate, but i hope that makes sense

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Old 10-22-2019, 10:02 AM   #296 (permalink)
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I find the 15% power train loss claim nonsensical. How does a drivetrain only take 45hp to turn in a 300hp car, but then 90hp in a 600hp car?
Its just a convenient number that was used for quick easy math. It obviously is different and unique to each drivetrain combo in each vehicle. More power generally comes hand in hand with more "friction and heat" aka more losses, so the % still works although the exact number is undoubtedly wrong. Another side of that is components of a 600hp tend to be built to handle the increased power, which generally means larger, heavier, or in the case of gears for example more area meshing which leads to more friction and heat.
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Old 10-22-2019, 07:13 PM   #297 (permalink)
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Might as well add the new Mark Ortiz Chassis Newsletter to the thread.


PROS AND CONS OF MID-ENGINE LAYOUT

The question sent to Mark.

Quote:
Some clarity please.

The advent of the new C8 Corvette with its mid mounted engine inspires, again, some questionable comments on handling characteristics of such cars. To quote: “A mid-engine car has a low polar moment of inertia”, “allowing the car to change direction more easily”, but “it can be harder for a novice to recover should the tail break loose”.

The third quote seems problematic or unclear. It would seem that the low moment of inertia, and relatively high ratio of wheel torques to inertia, that enable the mid-engine car to change direction easily should also allow control to be regained more easily in a skid. Is this reasoning flawed?

Does the qualification of “novice” here have some relevance? Would a pro not have the same problem? The central driver location would reduce the driver lateral motion in a skid relative to a more rearward location, so that inertial information of a skid might be reduced, but the visual and inertial cues from rotation should be the same. Does the “harder to recover” statement agree with reality?



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The polar moment of inertia referred to here is a measure of the car’s rotational inertia about a vertical (z) axis. This is expressed mathematically as the radius of gyration, conventionally designated k, or kz, times the car’s mass. To understand what the radius of gyration is, imagine that all the car’s mass was concentrated at one infinitely dense point, some distance from the center of rotation we are considering. How far away would that notional single mass need to be, to have the same rotational inertia as the car has? Stated another way, the car’s mass, times the radius of gyration squared, times rotational acceleration, equals rotational inertia.

Note that the radius of gyration is squared here. If the radius of gyration is twice as big, that means the mass accelerates linearly twice as fast for a given rotational acceleration, and also the resulting inertial reaction acts at twice the radius, so the rotational inertia is four times as great. The implication for the car designer is that relatively small changes in the radius of gyration have relatively big effects on car behavior.

Accordingly, for a given rotational moment applied by the tires (or anything else), rotational acceleration is inversely proportional to the square of the radius of gyration. When we reduce the radius of gyration, the car accelerates faster rotationally with a given excitation. So it is correct that a car with its masses centralized changes direction more readily. Or, more precisely, it changes yaw velocity (as distinct from yaw displacement) more readily. It starts rotating in yaw more readily, and it also stops or reverses yaw rotation more readily.

This is particularly useful for chicanes, slaloms, and any opposite-direction turns in quick succession.

The car actually has three polar moments of inertia, and three corresponding radii of gyration, for roll (kx), pitch (ky), and yaw (kz).

When we locate masses closer to the relevant axis of rotation, along either of the other two axes, we reduce the rotational inertia about the axis of rotation. For yaw, we reduce the polar moment of inertia by locating masses closer to the middle of the car, either longitudinally or transversely. The question of engine location mainly relates to longitudinal location of a major mass, but it’s worth noting in passing that moving things in laterally has some effect as well.

For example, the Lancia D50 F1 car of 1954 had outrigger fuel tanks between the front and rear wheels, hung out on struts from the body. These were intended to act as a form of fairing between the wheels, and to also provide fuel storage in a location where fuel burnoff would have less effect on weight distribution than with a tank in the tail. There was also some fuel carried in the tail, along with the oil. In 1955, the car was taken over by Ferrari and ran as the Lancia-Ferrari. Ferrari experimented with side tanks further in from the wheels, which reduced the yaw inertia. The first version with the tanks moved in retained fairings between the wheels but had the gap to the body filled in, and the tanks moved into that area. On the final version of the car, in 1958, the pontoons disappeared entirely, and there were smaller side tanks within a conventional-looking body. The reduction in tank capacity accompanied a switch from alcohol fuel to gasoline due to a rules change that year.

Such a change would also reduce roll inertia. This is less important, but it illustrates the point that moving a mass toward the center along one axis always reduces rotational inertia about the other two axes, not just one.

Correspondingly, moving the engine toward the middle of the car along the x axis reduces rotational inertia about both the y and z axes: in pitch as well as yaw.

This has implications for ride quality. It affects what ride engineers call the k2/ab ratio. (Note again the squaring of the k term.) This parameter comes from Maurice Olley’s work for GM in the 1930’s. In this expression, k is ky, the radius of gyration in pitch, for just the sprung mass. a is the horizontal distance from the sprung mass c.g. to the front axle. b is the horizontal distance from the sprung mass c.g. to the rear axle. For best ride, especially in lightly damped passenger cars, we want a k2/ab ratio close to 1. Or at least that works best assuming we’re holding wheelbase constant.

Olley arrived at this conclusion through experiments that involved a 1930’s passenger car with a k2/ab ratio considerably less than 1 due to the wheels being toward the ends. Olley hung movable weights off the front and rear of the car to make the k2/ab ratio adjustable. He found that if the car was really “end heavy” it tended to oscillate in pitch, a bit like a front end loader on soft tires. If the car was really “center heavy” instead, it felt stiffer, and thus harsher, in pitch. We should note that this relates to the car’s response to a pitch excitation consisting of sequential excitations at the front and rear axle, as when negotiating a speed bump or raised railroad crossing. The k2/ab ratio does not affect pitch displacement in response to braking or power application.

Anyway, a mid-engine car tends to have a “pitchier” ride over single-axle disturbances than one with the engine located closer to an axle. For sports cars, however, the central driver position makes pitch somewhat less noticeable to the driver, compared to a seating position close to the rear axle.

“Can be harder for a novice to recover should the tail break loose” pretty much does agree with reality, but the matter is a bit complicated. Partly, it depends on what we use to measure difficulty. In many cases, the required countersteer input may be smaller in magnitude, but it generally needs to come quicker, and it also needs to be taken back out quicker as the tail grabs again and yaw acceleration reverses. The usual problem in catching a slide is correcting too late, rather than too little, and often trying to compensate for lateness by overcorrecting. If the required correction needs to be prompter and also more delicate, that calls for greater quickness and finesse from the driver. Experience and training help with this.

Driver positioning is a factor, as well. Being seated close to the rear axle definitely does help you feel what’s going on at the rear contact patches, and you can still feel the fronts through the steering. Being in the middle of the car has its advantages too, though. Usually, it's easier to see, at least to the front. As already mentioned, it’s best for ride comfort, and it also makes the car feel more like an extension of your body. A rearward seating position produces more of a sensation of the car being a separate entity that’s dragging you around by the ankles. That isn’t really an impediment to driving the car, however.

For most road courses, really small yaw inertia isn’t a huge advantage. For open road races, as held in continental Europe and Latin America up through the 1950’s, it can even be desirable to have greater yaw inertia. This is particularly helpful when we may unexpectedly encounter small slippery patches, such as sand washes across turns or oily patches. The car does a smaller wiggle in such situations if it has a lot of yaw inertia. That in turn means the driver can drive a bit closer to the limit of adhesion for a given level of risk. So the designers back then weren’t necessarily wrong to build cars with front engines and transaxles in back, and say that the resulting yaw inertia was good thing.

In a mid-engined car, we can address this by making the wheelbase longer, and by setting the car up with a bit more understeer. The wheelbase tends to grow some anyway, when we move components inside the wheelbase and have to find room for them there.

Although we can’t really say that a car has a natural frequency in yaw, anecdotally it does seem that esses of particular frequencies tend to excite certain cars at yaw frequencies that create something akin to a resonant response and can cause loss of control in cars with large kz. There is a track near me that has what some people call the “Corvette trap” for this reason. Chances are that the C8 will not have the same problem, at least at that place on that track.

While much discussion of the rear mid engine layout focuses on yaw inertia, its most compelling advantages probably lie elsewhere. Assuming we’re using a large engine, and assuming we’ve chosen to drive only the rear wheels, putting the engine directly behind the driver gets us better propulsive traction and better braking than putting it in front, and hanging the engine behind the rear axle isn’t a viable option if it’s really big. Putting the engine behind the driver also lets us lower the driver’s eye level and hence the roofline and the nose, improving aerodynamics.
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Old 10-22-2019, 08:50 PM   #298 (permalink)
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...c8-power-dyno/

Apparently the new motor makes a wee bit more than the SAE rating.









Hopefully it's not a fluke. Nice numbers.
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Old 10-22-2019, 08:54 PM   #299 (permalink)
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Hopefully it's not a fluke. Nice numbers.
Feels like a promotional car. Like the GTO
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:17 PM   #300 (permalink)
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Feels like a promotional car. Like the GTO
That's a big bump for just blueprinting. For that kind of numbers it would have to be ported, CR'd, cam'd, etc.

It might be 1970 all over again. Porsche has always been conservative with HP ratings, but not by those margins.
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