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Old 09-11-2019, 08:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Other than the mild annoyance of TSA, all of this stuff is philosophical, yes we have lost liberty, but the world and our country is a dynamic place. It's not like we can go back to frontier justice, and local militias and whatnot.

The debt and out of control spending is a real concern however, especially with the current POTUS recommending zero or less prime rate, WTF, pay the borrowers to take the money?
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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They didn't miss because they were waiting for it. Just like they're waiting now for the next one.


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Old 09-11-2019, 08:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
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what would circa 2000 you think would come from crashing 4 planes into buildings?

Are the lasting results not many times more damaging than they could have possibly imagined?
They won, we fucked ourselves something good.
circa 2000 me was a bit closer to modern day overbear opinion wise

i won't say there hasn't been successes for their side and they thrive on chaos, but no, i think they are ultimately worse off than anticipated and we are better off than they expected.
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:19 AM   #29 (permalink)
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They didn't miss because they were waiting for it. Just like they're waiting now for the next one.


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Thought that was more of a Dems play
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:27 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Looking at the country now is it a legit argument that they won? The liberties lost chalked up to safety and ect. They have affected our way of life daily. Not to mention the cash we have spent on war and chasing these cocksuckers around caves and shit.
Yes, the self-built and installed terrorists (CIA paying militian, settingup the taliban) were portrayed in the most perfect light so the blame falls on them instead of the government "we" elected...

Why did the Taliban attack the USA? Was it religion, values? Maybe it was money? Oh yea - we pulled the entire funding from them and their cool world of fame and power came crashing down. No more haram fucking goats and any girl in any town...
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:32 AM   #31 (permalink)
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We are definitely worse off. But, its for a variety of reasons. 95% of those reasons are caused by people here, not the islamic terrorists.
The remaining 5% will be solved by the Terrorists we've put into office
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:35 AM   #32 (permalink)
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nah bro. you must have a more myopic view. looking at things in the short term yes. But it will be looked back upon as necessary. There are numerous things that have, historically, been completely opposite of freedom. Sometimes it takes it to recognize it. Most recognize TSA and patriot act as likely necessary for the time, but completely mooted by time.
I don't think anyone thinks the Patriot Act or TSA did anything measurably positive. The negatives are plain to see, though. So why would history think they were necessary?
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:05 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I think win/lose is too black and white. That said, there are certainly, long term, devastating effects to this country that are a direct result of the 9/11 attacks.

The PATRIOT Act is some of the most blatantly unconstitutional and anti-liberty legislation ever passed in this country. Everything we feared from it has already happened and the country at large is ok with it to a point that's just scary. Obama ran with that new found power with basically zero consequence. NSA spying on Americans en masse, Federal agencies used to subvert political opponents, political campaigns spied on and wire tapped, the IRS weaponized against political groups, raids on the Associated Press, ect, ect.

We now have an entire generation that was raised under this and on the internet that's ok with being spied on and no longer values privacy or individual liberty. We've set the precedent that it's ok for the government to spy on it's citizens, mine data and establish databases, subvert basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution, create lists of untrustworthy citizens, ect.

We've only seen the tip of the iceburg in the US on what this abuse of power can lead to. The rest of it is in place in countries considered first world nations. Look at the surveillance state in the UK, especially in London. Cameras all over the place, databases, controlled speech and thought, facial recognition databases. Hell, you can't even defend yourself over there and need a license to own kitchen knives. Look at the social credit system in China and the control they have over their people. It's only going to get worse as technology improves and it should scare the absolute shit out of anyone who values individual liberty.

But, it's all done in the name of safety so it's ok right? Does anyone really feel safer because we have a meaningless color system and overpaid, glorified rent-a-cops at the airport who have failed every measurable test of their effectiveness since they were put in place?

That said, we've been an increasingly complacent populace for decades. Government naturally seeks to grow itself and it's power to retain control. It could be argued that all they really "won" on 9/11 was speeding up the inevitable a bit. Compared to the rest of the free world, we're still significantly better off for the most part and likely will be for the foreseeable future. There's still a significant resistance to the ideas of socialism and authoritarianism in this country, much more so than in the rest of the first world.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:24 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I dont think they won, but neither did we. We engaged in a war we cannot win.....if we had "wanted" revenge, go take out osama, saddam, and then leave the messhole alone...
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Yes was my original thought because of the reasons you listed. Look at what we’ve done to ourselves since 2001. We’ve sacrificed liberty for protection.
Ben Franklin...………………………………..

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

IMO the terrorists have won a partial victory. They've made us afraid in our own country.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:25 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I think win/lose is too black and white. That said, there are certainly, long term, devastating effects to this country that are a direct result of the 9/11 attacks.
I was here to say this very thing.

An example is Britain joining WW1 and "winning" the war. They were on the winning side but it cost them. The amount of wealth transferred from London to New York was enough to end them being the world bank. They spent $47 billion and over 700,000 lives.

It's more about how it will change things if one choice is made over another.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:48 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I was here to say this very thing.

An example is Britain joining WW1 and "winning" the war. They were on the winning side but it cost them. The amount of wealth transferred from London to New York was enough to end them being the world bank. They spent $47 billion and over 700,000 lives.

It's more about how it will change things if one choice is made over another.
The same thing happened to Britain with WW II, only on a much larger scale. WW II essentially bankrupted Britain and ended up with them having to withdraw from "empire".
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:29 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I was here to say this very thing.

An example is Britain joining WW1 and "winning" the war. They were on the winning side but it cost them. The amount of wealth transferred from London to New York was enough to end them being the world bank. They spent $47 billion and over 700,000 lives.

It's more about how it will change things if one choice is made over another.
I thought that was us, coming in late and "winning" that war.

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The same thing happened to Britain with WW II, only on a much larger scale. WW II essentially bankrupted Britain and ended up with them having to withdraw from "empire".
It's almost like we got suckered into these wars to cover our bets... er, investments. Almost.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:54 AM   #39 (permalink)
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The same thing happened to Britain with WW II, only on a much larger scale. WW II essentially bankrupted Britain and ended up with them having to withdraw from "empire".
Not just Britain, but Europe in general. Going back, you can thank the Brits and Eisenhower for our current issues in the Middle East. We were well liked over there because we didn't fuck with them. It wasn't until after WWII that the Brits really pushed us into helping them fuck around over there for the benefit of their oil companies. This kind of shit is exactly why our Founding Fathers so heavily harped on not having entangling alliances with foreign countries.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:26 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Not just Britain, but Europe in general. Going back, you can thank the Brits and Eisenhower for our current issues in the Middle East...
Try Woodrow and then Eleanor, and keep in mind that Stalin and Mao couldn't pinch a penny between them despite a metric shit ton of aid to them both.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Athletes getting paid multi million dollars not for playing sports but for disrespecting the flag.
What du fuck does that have to do with the war on terror?
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:57 AM   #42 (permalink)
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NYT could not bring itself to say Muslim Terrorists in a Tweet about the 18th anniversary. This is a Tweet they deleted after the obvious backlash ensued.

“18 years have passed since airplanes took aim and brought down the World Trade Center. Today, families will once again gather and grieve at the site where more than 2000 people died,” the Times’ verified Twitter account wrote in a message accompanying a story about 9/11 victims being remembered at Ground Zero.

All the news that's fit to print.
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:29 PM   #43 (permalink)
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NYT could not bring itself to say Muslim Terrorists in a Tweet about the 18th anniversary. This is a Tweet they deleted after the obvious backlash ensued.

“18 years have passed since airplanes took aim and brought down the World Trade Center. Today, families will once again gather and grieve at the site where more than 2000 people died,” the Times’ verified Twitter account wrote in a message accompanying a story about 9/11 victims being remembered at Ground Zero.

All the news that's fit to print.
Well, to be fair, democracy dies in darkness when airplanes take aim and shit.
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:39 PM   #44 (permalink)
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We won the body count. KBR, McDonnell-Douglas, etc won the money. Soldiers and their families, and the US Constitution lost the most.
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:47 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Looking at the country now is it a legit argument that they won?
No argument here. Shrubbery's people started dismanteling the Fourth Amendment on Sep 12, 2001.

Ever since, the left has had school shootings & the right have had 9/11.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:28 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yes. The TSA and the patriot act fucked us.
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We’ve sacrificed liberty for protection.
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Worse. Sacrificed liberty for the illusion of protection.
All true. They didn't win anything, but we lost. A few more mass shootings and we are going to lose some more.

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The debt and out of control spending is a real concern however, especially with the current POTUS recommending zero or less prime rate, WTF, pay the borrowers to take the money?
You do understand that it is "us" that is borrowing? (From ourselves) No sense driving up our debt by raising the interest. I'm not saying spending is good, just that Trump is recommending the right thing here.

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Not just Britain, but Europe in general. Going back, you can thank the Brits and Eisenhower for our current issues in the Middle East. We were well liked over there because we didn't fuck with them. It wasn't until after WWII that the Brits really pushed us into helping them fuck around over there for the benefit of their oil companies. This kind of shit is exactly why our Founding Fathers so heavily harped on not having entangling alliances with foreign countries.
Let's be clear. Oil has nothing to do with it. The reason Muslims hate us is simple. Our foreign policy. What part of our foreign policy you ask? The part where we don't think they should slaughter every man, woman and child in Israel. That's it. All the rest is just bs designed to hide the real issue.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
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All true. They didn't win anything, but we lost. A few more mass shootings and we are going to lose some more.
What do you think their goal was?

You think they were playing for a fucking trophy?

Because we lost they won.

I am not going to try to understand all the motives or logic of terrorist, but if the goal of terrorist is to disruption, confusion, and fear, they fucking won beyond their wildest dreams.

And you are right about one thing, the mass shooting, homegrown, nutcases are winning too.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:45 PM   #48 (permalink)
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nah bro. you must have a more myopic view. looking at things in the short term yes. But it will be looked back upon as necessary. There are numerous things that have, historically, been completely opposite of freedom. Sometimes it takes it to recognize it. Most recognize TSA and patriot act as likely necessary for the time, but completely mooted by time.
agree.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:52 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Let's be clear. Oil has nothing to do with it. The reason Muslims hate us is simple. Our foreign policy. What part of our foreign policy you ask? The part where we don't think they should slaughter every man, woman and child in Israel. That's it. All the rest is just bs designed to hide the real issue.
Nail, head. Israel became a nation shortly after WW II because the Brits decided they could no longer rule the "Palestine Mandate". The arabs adamantly refused to accept a Jewish state in Palestine. We've backed Israel, hence the hatred the arabs have for us.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:59 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The muslim world has been at war with us long before we had a foreign policy and long before this nation existed.

The muslim calendar begins with the Hegira (622 AD), when Mohammed fled Mecca and went to Medina. Exactly 110 years later, muslim troops were fighting Christians in NORTHERN FRANCE (Battle of Tours). In those mere 110 years the islamic world had taken over a big chunk of the known world was was about to devour Christiandom. If they hadn't been stopped by Charles Martel at Tours and by the Spanish Christians at Covadonga (Don Pelayo), we would all be speaking arabic. This war of aggression continued until the West became so technologically and economically dominant that muslim nations became colonies of the west. Heck, even America's first foreign war was with muslim nations who thought it was their right to intercept US shipping and enslave American sailors.

So no. It wasn't Eisenhower and the Brits who made that happen. It's just the excuse that apologists of muslim fundamentalists - and the US left, but I'm repeating myself - like to use. This is not to say that our foreign policy wasn't messed up.
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