And so it starts... First Red Flag law death. - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Miscellaneous > General Chit-Chat
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-15-2019, 01:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23744
Location: White Mtns., Arizona... it's on the map, just not on any map!
Posts: 10,312
And so it starts... First Red Flag law death.

https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/...j_MHZOIowEj4oU

Man shot and killed for red flag law in Maryland. Seemed to ma that this man wasn't dangerous prior to the man not being subject to this law.
__________________
I R A REVOLUTION LEADER!

Last edited by flecker; 09-15-2019 at 01:25 PM.
flecker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 01:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684778
Location: Mosquito, Ca. in the Eldorado Nat'l Forest
Posts: 238
“Under the law, family, police, mental health professionals can all ask for the protective orders to remove weapons,”

Which of the 3 asked for the order?

If it was the family all they did was speed up the process, that is if they were concerned for his safety!
mountain-dweller- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 01:34 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23744
Location: White Mtns., Arizona... it's on the map, just not on any map!
Posts: 10,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain-dweller- View Post
“Under the law, family, police, mental health professionals can all ask for the protective orders to remove weapons,”

Which of the 3 asked for the order?

If it was the family all they did was speed up the process, that is if they were concerned for his safety!
My question is, on what grounds? This law is so subjective on reasoning...

Ergo, get an unreasonable family member, shrink or leo who thinks, for whatever reason, that you having a firearm is dangerous and it's on.

This is complete bullshit.

Some people out there may think I'm a wackjob… so what? So now what? On a whim I am subject to a thorough examination before I am deemed "ok" to own/ have a firearm? Something is desperately wrong with this scenario.

I think the president is unstable. I don't believe he should have ANY firearms around him... we need to confiscate them all. All Politicians are insane, they need NO weapons around them.
__________________
I R A REVOLUTION LEADER!

Last edited by flecker; 09-15-2019 at 01:36 PM.
flecker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 01:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
vetteboy79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member # 31621
Location: Morganville, NJ
Posts: 11,150
Send a message via AIM to vetteboy79
That's from November 2018...pretty sure we covered that one on here already
__________________
The Alternative Rocker - Taurus SHO V6-powered, Explorer-framed, TTB-front, RCV'd, YJ-bodied east coast racer

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Flying Pig Racing #512
vetteboy79 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 01:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
No
 
Filthy McChevy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Member # 106663
Location: South Park
Posts: 15,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteboy79 View Post
That's from November 2018...pretty sure we covered that one on here already
YeRp.
__________________
Durrhh.
Filthy McChevy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 02:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,579
Quote:
November 5, 2018 at 11:00 pm
i don't believe that this is the only time since that something like this has happened. i'm just not sure it will be reported ever again
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 02:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52361
Location: Tucson,AZ
Posts: 4,164
A few months back a man in Tucson shit and killed a us marshal under similar circumstances I believe
PROJECTJUNKIE is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 02:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
3Cs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Member # 45122
Posts: 2,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by PROJECTJUNKIE View Post
A few months back a man in Tucson shit and killed a us marshal under similar circumstances I believe
"I once shat a man in Tucson, just to watch him cry."
3Cs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 02:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
The dude abides
 
DEER TICK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Member # 114517
Location: Grass Valley
Posts: 1,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by PROJECTJUNKIE View Post
A few months back a man in Tucson shit and killed a us marshal under similar circumstances I believe


That must have been one hell of a shit!
__________________
Opinions are like assholes.Everybody has one,and most stink!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DEER TICK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Member # 193950
Posts: 1,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by flecker View Post
My question is, on what grounds? This law is so subjective on reasoning...

Ergo, get an unreasonable family member, shrink or leo who thinks, for whatever reason, that you having a firearm is dangerous and it's on.

This is complete bullshit.

Some people out there may think I'm a wackjob… so what? So now what? On a whim I am subject to a thorough examination before I am deemed "ok" to own/ have a firearm? Something is desperately wrong with this scenario.

I think the president is unstable. I don't believe he should have ANY firearms around him... we need to confiscate them all. All Politicians are insane, they need NO weapons around them.
My thought is that if someone is truly a danger to themselves and others, why are we taking away their guns and leaving them otherwise free to hamr themselves and others?
If they are truly a danger to themselves and others, why are they not being sent in for a involuntary psychological evaluation?

Aaron Z
__________________
At some point you have to accept that lots of naturally-occurring substances can kill you-Solandri
aczlan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23744
Location: White Mtns., Arizona... it's on the map, just not on any map!
Posts: 10,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by aczlan View Post
My thought is that if someone is truly a danger to themselves and others, why are we taking away their guns and leaving them otherwise free to hamr themselves and others?
If they are truly a danger to themselves and others, why are they not being sent in for a involuntary psychological evaluation?

Aaron Z
I can build devices that can do substantially more damage than firearms. I'm reasonably intelligent enough to plant them in places that would have a high kill ratio also. Red Flags are worthless.
__________________
I R A REVOLUTION LEADER!
flecker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
Circus Ring ******
 
Bubba the Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Member # 867108
Location: State of Discombobulation
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteboy79 View Post
That's from November 2018...pretty sure we covered that one on here already <a href="https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="" >:-)</a>
But that won't stop it from being rehashed all over again. Because well...
__________________
“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.”
― Will Rogers
Bubba the Red is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Member # 684778
Location: Mosquito, Ca. in the Eldorado Nat'l Forest
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by flecker View Post
I can build devices that can do substantially more damage than firearms. I'm reasonably intelligent enough to plant them in places that would have a high kill ratio also. Red Flags are worthless.
Reported you have been red flagged for a lobotomy, now let's see you build "The Device"...
mountain-dweller- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29527
Location: WA
Posts: 38,226
The guy thought the reasonable course of action, when being served a warrant, was to use his gun on the officers serving it. You don't get much more red flaggy than that.
__________________
The original Fuckwad Penis.
CrustyJeep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
The guy thought the reasonable course of action, when being served a warrant, was to use his gun on the officers serving it. You don't get much more red flaggy than that.
no warrant in the baltimore case.

the MD red flag law states that a family mamber can call and the state troopers will confiscate. NO judicial review, unlike the slightly less flawed but just as useless WA state red flag law

his sister reported him, they went to conduct illegal asset seizure
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 03:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23744
Location: White Mtns., Arizona... it's on the map, just not on any map!
Posts: 10,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Provience View Post
no warrant in the baltimore case.

the MD red flag law states that a family mamber can call and the state troopers will confiscate. NO judicial review, unlike the slightly less flawed but just as useless WA state red flag law

his sister reported him, they went to conduct illegal asset seizure
I hear what your sayin... but you really want to argue (with logic) with Crusty Heep?

That's a bold strategy Cotton.
__________________
I R A REVOLUTION LEADER!

Last edited by flecker; 09-15-2019 at 04:01 PM.
flecker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 04:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29527
Location: WA
Posts: 38,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Provience View Post
no warrant in the baltimore case.

the MD red flag law states that a family mamber can call and the state troopers will confiscate. NO judicial review
Google says this is completely false. The request goes before a judge. The order is issued by the court.
__________________
The original Fuckwad Penis.
CrustyJeep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 04:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75858
Location: Davisburg, MI
Posts: 542
What ever happened to "innocent till proven guilty"?
__________________
LQ9, Atlas, tons, 8274 & the rest of the usual
white-rhino is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 04:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
Google says this is completely false. The request goes before a judge. The order is issued by the court.
alright, based on what then? i know that it is less stringent than WA version.

family member puts in request to court, court reviews fuckall (?) issues warrant?

i'm not surprised that at all it leads to violence. right or wrong, approaching somebody who might be a threat before dawn to confiscate property without prior notice is asking for trouble. and is 0% a good or positive thing
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 05:02 PM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member # 29527
Location: WA
Posts: 38,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Provience View Post
alright, based on what then? i know that it is less stringent than WA version.

family member puts in request to court, court reviews fuckall (?) issues warrant?

i'm not surprised that at all it leads to violence. right or wrong, approaching somebody who might be a threat before dawn to confiscate property without prior notice is asking for trouble. and is 0% a good or positive thing
Of course it leads to violence. Luckily in this case, it appears the correct person died.

Or ya know, we could just go ahead and throw the rule of law out the window, right?
__________________
The original Fuckwad Penis.
CrustyJeep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 05:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,579
https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/...lgi-story.html

fuck red flag laws

Quote:
What is a ‘red flag’ law and how has it worked in Maryland and elsewhere?
By Meredith Cohn and Catherine Rentz
Baltimore Sun |
Aug 07, 2019 | 8:00 AM

After mass shootings in Ohio and Texas, there’s been pressure on lawmakers around the country to enact more gun violence prevention measures. So-called “red flag” laws are among proposals that gain steam after such tragedies. The aim is to keep guns out of the hands of people who pose an immediate threat to themselves and others. Maryland’s red flag law took effect last year, after the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.

Shannon Frattaroli, an associate professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, took part in a gun violence task force after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., in 2012. The panel recommended use of red flag orders — formally called extreme-risk protection orders. She explains how they work.
What are extreme-risk protection orders?

The laws allow law enforcement and, in many cases, certain family members to petition a court to forbid someone exhibiting dangerous behaviors — such as amassing weapons, making threats or planning violence — from possessing or buying guns. A judge generally decides on a short-term emergency petition and a longer-term petition, usually lasting no more than a year.

The orders expand on domestic violence laws that in some states had already allowed law enforcement to temporarily prevent someone from possessing a gun.
Sheriff: Maryland's 'red flag' law prompted gun seizures after four 'significant threats' against schools »

The red flag orders are often mischaracterized as solely aimed at taking guns from people with mental health disorders — who Frattaroli said are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of gun violence. The red flag orders focus on individuals displaying dangerous behaviors.

“There is more evidence that focusing on behaviors can be very effective in preventing violence," she said. “These orders are for people acting out while in a crisis."
Which states have laws and how are they different?

Seventeen states and the District of Columbia have enacted laws, primarily since 2012.

All of them allow law enforcement to petition the courts. Many states also allow family members and intimate partners to seek an order. The Maryland law is considered among the strongest because it also allows some health care providers and social workers to petition the court and permits requests any day or time.

In New York, school administrators can petition for an order. In Hawaii, a co-worker can. States also have different standards of proof or lengths of time that people are banned from having guns.
How many petitions have there been in Maryland?

Since the law went into effect Oct. 1, Maryland’s judiciary has fielded 788 requests, or about 80 a month, to remove firearms from individuals, according to data provided by Montgomery County Sheriff Darren M. Popkin.

Anne Arundel County, where the Capital Gazette newspaper office shooting occurred last year, had the most petitions at 128. Harford County, which had a mass shooting at a Rite Aid warehouse last year, had 70 requests.

In the Baltimore area, the city of Baltimore, which has the highest rate of gun violence in the state, had 29. Baltimore County had 118 and Carroll had 32.
Maryland's new 'red flag' gun safety law drew 114 requests to remove firearms during its first month »

Only Kent County on the Eastern Shore had no petitions.

About half the requests statewide have come from family and half from law enforcement, Popkin said.

Overall, courts granted about half the requests.

Popkin said the majority of the orders do involve someone with mental health problems who is in the middle of a crisis related to domestic violence or suicide threats.

By contrast, California, with about five times the population as Maryland but a more restrictive law, issued 86 orders in 2016, according to The Trace, a nonprofit news organization covering guns in the U.S.
What does the evidence show?

Frattaroli said that it’s not possible to say how many potential victims of mass shootings were saved by the laws. But there is evidence that the laws are preventing gun violence.

Research largely comes from Connecticut and Indiana, where there were versions of the red flag orders before 2012, and from states with domestic violence laws that include prohibitions on guns. Early red flag data suggests a reduction in intimate partner homicides and suicides, which account for the most gun deaths.

Frattaroli said researchers will be tracking the trajectory of gun violence in states with red flag orders as one way to assess the orders’ effectiveness at preventing mass shootings and other violence.

this article reinforces the sentiments that "mental health" questions are innappropriate for arms confiscation, shows that protection orders do not have significant, if any, measurable impact on overall violence, and are best used when focused solely on folks 'in crisis' and at those times, simple confiscatino is NOT the answer or help that folks need.

so, apparently there is a halfassed judicial review and it is still absurd legislation
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 05:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
Of course it leads to violence. Luckily in this case, it appears the correct person died.

Or ya know, we could just go ahead and throw the rule of law out the window, right?
how did the right person die if the cops didn't show up and this guy never acted violently, then clearly some agent of the state should have died or his sister held accountable for "swatting" him

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment...-case-65601801
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 05:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
paragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Member # 40266
Location: Jackson, MS USA
Posts: 24,072
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
Or ya know, we could just go ahead and throw the rule of law out the window, right?
that's already happened with the red flag laws
__________________
[COLOR="Black"].

...
[/COLOR]
[CENTER][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="4"]"For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo"[/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER]
paragon is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 05:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23744
Location: White Mtns., Arizona... it's on the map, just not on any map!
Posts: 10,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
Google says this is completely false. The request goes before a judge. The order is issued by the court.
Was the guy there? Who was his accuser? Did he have a chance to confront his accuser?

Sounds like due process was omitted. Your on board with that? What other rights/ liberties do you want to see go by the way side for security reasons? Or for whatever reason?

Please, do tell.

I don't like the words that come out of your mouth, who cares about the first amendment. I want the ability to approach the court, without your knowledge or you having to be there. I will state my case as to why you shouldn't be allowed to have verbal interactions with people. The Police obtain a warrant to come in the early morning hours and serve that warrant, confiscate your computer, laptop and tablet. After a long review and court appearance by you, you *might* get your first amendment right back to speak freely. OK? Sound good? Let's do this.

There's so many things fundamentally wrong with that ridiculous argument its just disgraceful... much like your argument.
__________________
I R A REVOLUTION LEADER!

Last edited by flecker; 09-15-2019 at 05:43 PM.
flecker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-15-2019, 06:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Member # 226216
Location: Lewis County, Washington
Posts: 3,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
Google says this is completely false. The request goes before a judge. The order is issued by the court.


So they found him guilty in a court of law without having him involved in the case? Seems like that would be the only way. Otherwise it seems that if he was found unfit to possess firearms for safety reasons and he was involved in the case they would not let him go home without prior removal of the firearms.
Red flag laws are blatant violations of due process of law. Regardless of what a law maker or judge says. For them to find you unfit to exercise your 2nd amendment rights without actually holding a real hearing in court directly involving the accused and accusers is not due process of law.

Would you be ok if they used the same method to determine if you could exercise your right to vote?

Family member that doesn’t agree with you says you have lost it and tells the court so. Court says you cant vote till you come before a judge and prove otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
thefishguy77 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.