Why don't companies want to keep their best and brightest? - Page 2 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Miscellaneous > General Chit-Chat
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-02-2019, 07:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Member # 2710
Location: Oregon
Posts: 715
You’re trouble stems from the fact that you’re not new and shinny. Vote with your feet. This is the economy to do it in.
__________________
1986 Toyota PU 4x4
2008 Toyota Crew Max PU 4x4
ToyFord is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 07:32 PM   #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by east_beast View Post
Publicly traded private sector, I 100% agree. If I can help it, I'll never hear the words "shareholder value" in the workplace ever again.

Currently working my ass off trying to get my own business up and running. Just landed distribution for all of Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona so fingers crossed I can get this thing going strong enough soon to step away from the day job and make my dream side project the full time bread winner.
Awesome! I wish you the best. Being your own boss will feel very liberating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by east_beast View Post
I get being confident, but make sure confidence doesn't cross over into cockiness. This post seems like it's well into cocky territory. You're not currently holding any of these amazing offers you're certain are soon to be piling in so I wouldn't overplay my current hand just yet.
Great point. Of course I am saying things on an anonymous forum to my e-friends that I would never say in a professional setting. Am I the best? No doubt in my mind. Would I ever say that at work? No way.

Also, you are right. I don't hold any of these great offers. If I did this post would read "why I decided to leave my company today". I am definitely not counting my chickens before they hatch. I am simply lamenting my company's inaction, or even negative action in some cases, in regards to my future there.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 08:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
emiller22207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Member # 116537
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 8,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44Runner View Post
All good points. I promise you I am the very best of the best but I understand your scepticism. You don't know me. Also, to be absolutely fair to my company, they probably will give me the job and title I want because I am the best. The problem is they should be moving fast to lock me in and they just aren't. By the time they get off their butt, I will likely have had to accept an offer from another company and they will have lost me. I would need something in writing to be able to turn down an offer that will be in writing.
They know your skills. You want more, they have not delivered. You consider another offer, they match or not. It’s called negotiation. If you’re as good as you say, you should leave because they have a lower assessment of your value than you. It’s business.

I just rehired a woman who left for more money and big position. I countered for a bit less $ and position, told her she’s good, but this is the job and salary that I have, and would miss her. She was good not great. That was 4 months ago. She called two weeks ago asking if coming back was an option. I said yes, and she’s getting what I offered before she left.

I’ve promoted staff and given big raises without being asked, because I don’t want them shopping—they are that good.

I’ve been relieved when asked for me to meet an offer, saying “no” knowing I could easily find a better replacement at the same price.

Sometimes the devil you know... Having to perform annual reviews on close to a hundred staff a year, most everyone thinks they’re better than they are and can’t be replaced without a lot of pain.

Also, sometimes it’s hard to break the mold of what you do in a firm where you’ve been a long time. People don’t see your potential, rather your day-to-day. Oftentimes the grass is greener at a new firm, but you will have to prove your value. And, sometimes it will suck worse.

Try to be honest with yourself regarding your potential. If you are that good, get another offer, and see if they match. If they don’t understand you will be starting over with more money.
__________________
May those that love us, love us; and for those that don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if he can't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles; so we may know them by their limping
emiller22207 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 08:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Member # 84339
Location: Flyover land
Posts: 16,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44Runner View Post
I have no problem leaving. If I get the offer I feel like I will get, leaving is probably the right call. My rant is mainly on why companies would want jumping ship to be the norm? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.



I have a side hustle. It doesn't make all that much money but the IRS taxed me for 47k of income off it last year. If things go South with my current day job (say they found out I have already accepted another job in November that starts in the summer but am biding my time until May to actually quit) it might become my main source of income for a few months.
how the fuck is 47K of income a 'side hustle'? That's damn near my paycheck
__________________
Lugnut4x4.com
And i don't want to give Canadiens any more money, so my sig is broke.
Pt_Ranger_V8 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:09 PM   #30 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
2big bronco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Member # 66684
Location: Santa cruz ca 95007
Posts: 14,091
Blog Entries: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pt_Ranger_V8 View Post
how the fuck is 47K of income a 'side hustle'? That's damn near my paycheck

Well that's because your not the absolute best of the best making a thread about it
__________________
Quote:
89 and carbed with a 4 speed. That's like saying the hooker was great, but she had a penis and herpes.
Wait, you Toyota fags are into that.
2big bronco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:15 PM   #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pt_Ranger_V8 View Post
how the fuck is 47K of income a 'side hustle'? That's damn near my paycheck
Things are all relative. I make more than 2.5x that at my day job so it is a side hustle for me.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
Change is good.
 
Roc Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member # 20631
Location: Desert Hills, AZ
Posts: 35,176
So what is it that you do that you're so awesome at, and don't say 'everything', our POTUS has that wrapped up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustard Dog
Me and my co driver were running across the Lakebed on our way to pre run when we saw :gary: walking his dog.

We didn't stop to say hi cause he's a fucking douchebag.
Roc Doc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:23 PM   #33 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 79509
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 7,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pt_Ranger_V8 View Post
how the fuck is 47K of income a 'side hustle'? That's damn near my paycheck
I was offered a job at $48 an hour. The cheapest house I could find in that town was $750k. I didn't move there.

$47k a year in certain parts is poverty. In flyover states, you're the richest guy in town.
__________________
Im not happy, until youre not happy.
Black Sheep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:25 PM   #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2big bronco View Post
Well that's because your not the absolute best of the best making a thread about it

And don't you forget it!

Seriously though, that was not the point of this thread. I make plenty of money and will be just fine regardless of how all this plays out. The point is that companies don't handle this well. It isn't just about me and my situation. I see it all over. If people go to school to better themselves but then have to leave their companies to get what they are worth (which by my estimation is over 90% of my classmates), that seems backwards.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Doc View Post
So what is it that you do that you're so awesome at, and don't say 'everything', our POTUS has that wrapped up.
Trump is just copying me. No, in all honesty I would rather not say. I want to keep some level of anonymity. Also remember that being the best is relative and frankly not terribly difficult given my competition. Am I super good at what I do? Absolutely. Does the impressive laziness of my coworkers make it relatively easy to be the considered the best? Oh yeah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Sheep View Post
I was offered a job at $48 an hour. The cheapest house I could find in that town was $750k. I didn't move there.

$47k a year in certain parts is poverty. In flyover states, you're the richest guy in town.
Very true. Median home price in my town is like $450k. Not Cali pricing by any means but certainly far and above flyover pricing.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 09:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member # 84960
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44Runner View Post
And don't you forget it!

Seriously though, that was not the point of this thread. I make plenty of money and will be just fine regardless of how all this plays out. The point is that companies don't handle this well. It isn't just about me and my situation. I see it all over. If people go to school to better themselves but then have to leave their companies to get what they are worth (which by my estimation is over 90% of my classmates), that seems backwards.
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
red75bronco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:02 PM   #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Member # 154867
Location: OK
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by red75bronco View Post
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.

This. I’d much rather have a team player with a good attitude over a self-glorifying badass. A leader isn’t trying to simply assemble the best players, but trying to assemble the best team. Maybe you’re a team player, OP, or maybe you think you’re above your team. By the way—moving up higher in management and being successful means being more of a team player than the individual contributors. You often lose more autonomy the higher you go through the first few rungs of leadership.
OHV Wildcat is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
YotaAtieToo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Member # 25632
Location: Magalia, Jefferson State
Posts: 11,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pt_Ranger_V8 View Post
how the fuck is 47K of income a 'side hustle'? That's damn near my paycheck
Don't worry, he's doing it wrong anyway. A good side hustle business is a "loss" at the end of the year. Helps with taxes on your normal income
YotaAtieToo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member # 34865
Posts: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHV Wildcat View Post
This. I’d much rather have a team player with a good attitude over a self-glorifying badass. A leader isn’t trying to simply assemble the best players, but trying to assemble the best team. Maybe you’re a team player, OP, or maybe you think you’re above your team. By the way—moving up higher in management and being successful means being more of a team player than the individual contributors. You often lose more autonomy the higher you go through the first few rungs of leadership.
Bam, spot on! Are you the whole team! Kinda sounds like you think you are. Best of luck in your new job.
__________________
Lindon, Utah
rockdog57 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:16 PM   #40 (permalink)
Registered User
 
YotaAtieToo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Member # 25632
Location: Magalia, Jefferson State
Posts: 11,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by red75bronco View Post
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
I can agree with most of that. I do think a lot of companies undervalue some of thier employees. Finding good workers is the biggest problem at every company I've been a part of in my working career.
YotaAtieToo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member # 84960
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by YotaAtieToo View Post
I can agree with most of that. I do think a lot of companies undervalue some of thier employees. Finding good workers is the biggest problem at every company I've been a part of in my working career.
Great companies find a good balance and get the right people on the bus. Bad companies undervalue employees. There are a lot of bad companies. There are also a lot of employees that over value themselves.
red75bronco is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by red75bronco View Post
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
I don't think they value education period so I think you are right on the money there.

I never said they wouldn't be fine without be. I am one cog in a very large machine. Explaining the situation here anonymously is a far cry from how I act at work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHV Wildcat View Post
This. I’d much rather have a team player with a good attitude over a self-glorifying badass. A leader isn’t trying to simply assemble the best players, but trying to assemble the best team. Maybe you’re a team player, OP, or maybe you think you’re above your team. By the way—moving up higher in management and being successful means being more of a team player than the individual contributors. You often lose more autonomy the higher you go through the first few rungs of leadership.
LOL. True story. I took a psych eval for work 3-4 months ago that they give to people they are looking to promote that literally said I was too much of a team player and that leaders in our company tend to be less so. I guess they subscribe to the "its lonely at the top" way of thinking.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 10:29 PM   #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Member # 7968
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by red75bronco View Post
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
This. Cool, you went to school, half of America has MBAs now with zero experience to back it up. When hiring I tossed MBA resumes if they went directly from Bachelors. To me meant they didn’t have a plan to work or couldn’t get a job and stayed in school for lack of option.

Not sure why you think company would pay more, you already work there doing the work. You’ll have to document why you are worth more.
__________________
1983 Toy PU, a few mods, Marlinized, lockerized
Hooligan is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 11:01 PM   #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
44Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9095
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
Posts: 6,771
Send a message via AIM to 44Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooligan View Post
This. Cool, you went to school, half of America has MBAs now with zero experience to back it up. When hiring I tossed MBA resumes if they went directly from Bachelors. To me meant they didn’t have a plan to work or couldn’t get a job and stayed in school for lack of option.

Not sure why you think company would pay more, you already work there doing the work. You’ll have to document why you are worth more.
I agree that MBAs direct from Bachelors is a pretty lame thing. I do have plenty of work experience. Actually, as far as I know, most (if not all) top business schools won't even look at you for an MBA unless you have at least 3-5 years of full time work experience.

Promotions generally pay more. And I won't work there doing the work if I leave. Why I am worth more is fairly well documented at this point. Like I said, I think I will get the promotion I want. I just think it will be too late by the time it is offered to me and I will have to twist their arm to put it in writing. Once again, all of this is just fine. I am good any way this thing turns out. The point is that companies could do better. Letting someone that knows your business really well and does a great job and clearly goes above and beyond walk out the door seems short sighted. I am watching it happen the same way with almost every single one of my classmates.

A close friend of mine in class and probably one of the smartest dudes I have ever met was told by the head of his company if he stayed he would be the next VP when the lady that is currently in the role steps down. He was like that sounds great but when is that going to happen? They said they didn't know and that until then he would just continue to do his current job. So they want to make this guy a VP, but won't do anything to keep him there in the mean time? What kind of sense does that make? Needless to say, he is looking elsewhere. I think that company gave him $50k toward his tuition so they thought they might have leverage. If you knew this guy you would know he is someone you should do anything to keep. He is currently planning to leave as soon as he lands a new job.
__________________
Sold: 1999 4Runner SC 3.4 5spd D44/8" 35s, 1989 4Runner 3.slow 5spd SAS
1990 PZJ77 factory locked
44Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2019, 11:06 PM   #45 (permalink)
Change is good.
 
Roc Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member # 20631
Location: Desert Hills, AZ
Posts: 35,176
Most companies are top heavy. The company I work for, (mfg of construction components), is super lean. There is the owner, who owns the buildings, the machinery, the land under the buildings, the inventory, the packaging...IOW, he doesn't owe anyone shit, no banks, no shareholders, partners, nothing.

Then there is my boss, then me and I don't supervise anyone. So that's the structure, absolute minimalist, do your job and you'll get good compensation, or if you don't you'll get replaced, as it should be. Most modern corps are bleeding off the profits to so many people that don't really add anything, that nobody can really make any good money. They set up unrealistic and sometimes indecipherable bonus plans, and with equity groups they don't GAF about anything except documentable EBITA, so they can flip the company.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustard Dog
Me and my co driver were running across the Lakebed on our way to pre run when we saw :gary: walking his dog.

We didn't stop to say hi cause he's a fucking douchebag.
Roc Doc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2019, 02:40 AM   #46 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75858
Location: Davisburg, MI
Posts: 562
40 years ago i had an old guy tell me “a company will always pay more to replace you than to keep you”. Rationalize and debate all you want, I still find it to be true.
__________________
LQ9, Atlas, tons, 8274 & the rest of the usual
white-rhino is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2019, 03:44 AM   #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Member # 54455
Location: NC
Posts: 262
Behind closed doors, your bosses are saying, "damn, 16 years. I didn't think it would take this long to get rid of him."

In our local engineering industry, turnover rates are incredibly high. In your first 10-15 years you basically go work for each firm that's worth a shit, chasing money every move. It's unheard of for guys to stay 16 years at their first company. I'm at 13 years with my first company and plan to stay the long haul. They actually pay me what I'm worth though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by YotaAtieToo View Post
Don't worry, he's doing it wrong anyway. A good side hustle business is a "loss" at the end of the year. Helps with taxes on your normal income
This needs to be a spin off. My CPA says it can't be done. The more I make on my side gig, the more I'm paying in taxes. There is no "loss". In the meantime, I'm not reporting shit.
__________________
Boats n Does
Deuce 40s is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2019, 04:15 AM   #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
kf4zht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Member # 80248
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 1,277
Part of it is you are looking. I've had people do this in the past - go on some interviews, come back and say they want X pay to match. Even if you give it to them 6 months later they are still gone. It is hardly ever only about pay for employees who go far enough to interview several places. That's what they claim and it placates them for a few months but then that "Grass is always greener" mentality comes in and they find something the other company appears to have that can't just change on a whim like pay. From a managers perspective your gone anyway, why should they fight to get you more and still have to hire someone in a few months.

When was your last promotion? If you aren't getting promotions every 2-3 years max you aren't hot shit in your company or you are letting others take your credit.

I also wouldnt embark on a master degree without tuition assistance and a prenegotiated promotion on completion. If I did it would be for the sole reason of getting a job elsewhere.
__________________
Where there is a way, there's a will.
kf4zht is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2019, 04:21 AM   #49 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4554
Location: Atlanta, Ga. USA Earth Sol etc.
Posts: 1,981
Send a message via AIM to bluesman2a
Quote:
Originally Posted by white-rhino View Post
40 years ago i had an old guy tell me “a company will always pay more to replace you than to keep you”. Rationalize and debate all you want, I still find it to be true.
True. This is supported by all the companies out there who have caps on raises, like the MOST they will bump you is XX%. Meanwhile the job market is offering in most cases 25% minimum on most good job changes.

Unfortunately in my case, current employer has a pension plan (yes, an honest to gawd pension) on top of 401K matches. So it means I'm more of a lifer than most in the tech world.
__________________
<blank>
bluesman2a is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2019, 04:57 AM   #50 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Member # 125361
Location: A town like Alice
Posts: 2,199
You’ve said “you made it clear that they were your first choice”.

Is the higher level position open?

Have you applied for it? Not just talked to your boss, but actually submitted an updated resume for the position you desire? If not, why not? You’ve submitted your updated resume to the other companies.
__________________
"It is characteristic of the unlearned, that they are forever proposing something which is old, and because it has recently come to their attention, supposing it to be new." Coolidge

"A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again"
U.P. Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.