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Old 10-11-2019, 08:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
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There was a thread on this, can't remember what it was

Remember the guy busted for allowing folks to manufacture guns on his equipment? read on

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html

Quote:
He sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts

By Scott Glover, CNN

Updated 7:07 PM ET, Fri October 11, 2019

(CNN)For more than a year, Joseph Roh illegally manufactured AR-15-style rifles in a warehouse south of Los Angeles.
His customers, more than two dozen of whom were legally prohibited from possessing a firearm, could push a button, pull a lever, and walk away a short time later with a fully assembled, untraceable semi-automatic weapon for about $1,000, according to court records.
Roh continued his black-market operation despite being warned in person by agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that he was breaking the law.
But five years after raiding his business and indicting him, federal authorities quietly cut a deal with Roh earlier this year and agreed to drop the charges
.
Why?
The judge in the case had issued a tentative order that, in the eyes of prosecutors, threatened to upend the decades-old Gun Control Act and "seriously undermine the ATF's ability to trace and regulate firearms nationwide."

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.
Federal authorities preferred to let Roh go free rather than have the ruling become final and potentially create case law that could have a crippling effect on the enforcement of gun laws, several sources familiar with the matter told CNN. Each requested anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the case and its possible implications.
Joseph Roh in the factory where he manufactured and sold AR-15-style weapons before being raided by agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives five years ago.
Joseph Roh in the factory where he manufactured and sold AR-15-style weapons before being raided by agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives five years ago.
Under US District Court Judge James V. Selna's interpretation of the law, convicted felons and other people prohibited from possessing firearms would be allowed to legally acquire all the parts necessary to assemble an AR-15-style rifle and other weapons, according to federal prosecutors.
Prosecutors and ATF officials declined comment for this story, noting that the case against Roh is technically an open matter because he remains subject to a deferred prosecution agreement.
Adam Winkler, a UCLA constitutional law professor and Second Amendment expert, predicted that Selna's tentative order would have "broad implications" and would encourage others to challenge existing law.
"This case could open up a huge loophole in federal law" he said. "It could lead to an explosion in the number of AR-15s out on the streets."
AR-15-style weapons are among the most popular in America and have been used in numerous mass shootings in recent years, including those at an elementary school in Connecticut, an outdoor music festival in Las Vegas, a church in Texas, and a high school in Florida.
The guns are sometimes assembled from separately acquired parts. Under federal law, the one regulated individual part of a firearm is what's known as the frame or receiver — a piece that, among other things, provides a housing for the hammer and firing mechanism of a gun.

Though incapable of firing a round, the part is considered a gun in its own right and is subject to the same restrictions as a fully intact firearm. Manufacturers must stamp it with a serial number and licensed dealers are required to conduct background checks on prospective buyers. The restrictions are intended, in part, to keep felons and other people prohibited from possessing firearms from acquiring them piece by piece.
AR-15s, however, do not have a single receiver that meets that definition. They have both an upper and lower receiver — two parts as opposed to the single part described in the law.
At issue in Roh's case was whether the law could fairly be interpreted to apply to just the lower receiver of the AR-15, as the ATF has been doing for decades.
To rule otherwise "would sweep aside more than 50 years of the ATF's regulation of AR-15s and other semiautomatic firearms," prosecutors wrote prior to the judge's order.
Federal law enforcement officials — and members of Congress — have been on notice about a potential problem with the language in federal gun law as applied to AR-15s since at least 2016.

In July of that year, prosecutors in Northern California abandoned a case against a convicted felon named Alejandro Jimenez after a judge found that the AR-15 lower receiver he was accused of purchasing in an ATF undercover sting did not meet the definition of a receiver under the law.
The ruling and subsequent dismissal drew little notice but prompted a letter to Congress from then-US Attorney General Loretta Lynch. She advised lawmakers that the judge's decision was not suitable for appeal and that if ATF officials believed the definition should be changed, they should pursue regulatory or administrative action.
'Not firearms'
Roh, who called his company ROHG Industries, had been on the ATF's radar since at least 2012, according to court records.

He met that summer with agency representatives about selling unfinished lower receivers, often referred to in the gun world as "80% lowers" because they are roughly 80% complete.
The part, which surrounds the trigger area of an AR-15, requires some additional machining and drilling before it is considered a regulated firearm under the law.
Roh sent the ATF a sample of one of his unfinished lower receivers seeking a determination as to whether it constituted a firearm. He was advised that it did not.
The devices are controversial among law enforcement and gun control advocates because they can be bought and sold without restriction, but can be converted into finished lower receivers, and then a fully functioning weapon, with relative ease.
"A violent shooting spree'
That is precisely how authorities suspect that John Zawahri obtained the AR-15-style rifle he used in a fatal shooting spree in Santa Monica, California, in 2013, according to confidential ATF documents obtained by CNN.
The documents state that the un-serialized matte black rifle Zawahri used to carry out the attack "appears to have been manufactured from an 80% lower receiver."
The documents note that investigators recovered a ROHG Industries invoice for an 80% lower receiver in Zawahri's residence after he was killed by police.

Agents suspect Zawahri finished machining the device on his own and then purchased the remaining unregulated parts to assemble a complete rifle.

"The ease in which the 80% lower can be acquired and manufactured into a complete firearm, as well as the anonymity in manufacturing and possessing such a weapon, makes it an option for people prohibited from purchasing a firearm through normal legal channels" the ATF documents state.
According to Santa Monica police, investigators found a letter from the Department of Justice in Zawahri's bedroom that was drafted two years before the attack, informing him that he was not eligible to purchase a firearm. A police department news release did not specify whether the letter was from the US or California Department of Justice. Nor did it provide a reason for why Zawahri was prohibited from buying a gun.
CNN was unable to determine whether ATF agents interviewed Roh about Zawahri's purchase.
California attorney Gregory Nicolaysen said his client was prosecuted based on an internal ATF policy "that masquerades as law."
California attorney Gregory Nicolaysen said his client was prosecuted based on an internal ATF policy "that masquerades as law."
Roh declined comment through his attorney, Gregory Nicolaysen.
Nicolaysen said any suggestion of a link between Roh's business and the Santa Monica shooting was based on "innuendo, not evidence."
"There is no credible evidence linking my client to any mass shooting," he said.
About four months after the shooting in Santa Monica, ROHG Industries turned up in an ATF investigation again — this time a half dozen un-serialized AR-15-style rifles were seized as part of a drug probe near San Bernardino, California. An informant in the case said the guns came from Roh's factory, according to court records.
'Build parties'
Around that same time, Roh sent a letter to the ATF. He had graduated from simply selling unfinished lower receivers and embarked on a new venture.
"We here at ROHG Industries have been doing build parties for quite some time," he wrote in the sparsely worded, one-paragraph letter.
"The customer installs the part into our machine and pushes the start button," Roh explained.
"Is this legal?" he asked.
In November, the chief of ATF's Firearms Technology Branch responded to Roh by letter. He told him that if the "build parties" he was referring to resulted in the production of anything the ATF classified as a firearm, he would need to obtain a license for manufacturing.
Roh did not heed that advice. When an undercover ATF agent visited his factory on two occasions in December, he "observed parts and machinery used to manufacture AR-15-type firearms," court documents state.
Two days before Christmas, the ATF gave Roh a warning in the form of a "cease and desist" letter. It informed him that he was engaged in the unlicensed manufacture of firearms and was at risk of criminal prosecution.
This time, Roh appeared to take heed.
When undercover agents visited his factory in early January, he was not there. But employees told agents they were no longer machining gun parts.
"The ATF had shut them down," the employees said, according to a report recounting the conversation.
They promised to call the purported customers back when they got the "green light" to resume operations.
'Push the green button'
Less than a week later they got the call. Their visit to the factory the following day was captured in secretly recorded video obtained by CNN.
Roh, dressed in a T-shirt and New York Yankees baseball cap, appeared congenial and knowledgeable about firearms. He made no secret of his business model.
"Are you here to ... make yourself a rifle right now?" he asked the agents during the encounter in January 2014.
"I'm not going to get into trouble or anything like that?" one of the agents asked.
"No," Roh reassured him. "We're legal, man."
Roh told the undercover agents he'd enacted a new policy after being shut down by the ATF:
Anyone who wanted machining services performed had to pay a $25 fee to join his "gun club." That way, he was no longer catering to the general public, he explained.
He told one of the agents he was already considered a member because he'd bought a gun before. Roh told him he would have to vouch for the newcomer so that he could join the gun club as well.
After collecting $25 from the new customer and agreeing to a price of $1,000 each for a pair of rifles he wanted to buy, Roh directed an employee to begin the machining process.
Moments later, he stood next to the agent in front of a large piece of equipment that is computer-coded to precisely machine parts for AR-15-style firearms.
"Go ahead and press the green button," Roh told the undercover agent.
"The green button?" the agent asked.
"Yeah," Roh replied. "That basically means that you did it — believe it or not."
Machinery in the warehouse where Joseph Roh manufactured AR-15-style weapons for $1,000 each.
Machinery in the warehouse where Joseph Roh manufactured AR-15-style weapons for $1,000 each.
A member of Roh's staff then oversaw the process of machining and drilling that converted an unfinished lower receiver — an innocuous chunk of metal before the process began — into a finished receiver the ATF considered a firearm under the law.
Roh then added barrels, stocks, bolts, triggers and other parts to make them fully-functioning weapons.
A factory, firearms and convicted felons
When agents served a search warrant on Roh's warehouse factory a month later, they seized dozens of completed handguns and rifles, and hundreds of gun parts, including upper and lower receivers.
His customers, according to records seized in the search, included 19 convicted felons, six domestic abusers, and one person prohibited from possessing guns "due to mental health unfitness." One customer, who had a felony conviction for making terrorist threats, later admitted to buying guns and gun parts from Roh that he then trafficked in Mexico, according to court records.
Roh was charged in October 2014 with manufacturing and dealing in firearms without a license. He pleaded not guilty and opted for a bench trial at which a judge alone would hear the evidence and decide his fate.

UCLA law professor Adam Winkler predicted the judge's rationale in the case against Roh would have "broad implications" and prompt others to challenge existing law.
UCLA law professor Adam Winkler predicted the judge's rationale in the case against Roh would have "broad implications" and prompt others to challenge existing law.
Though few facts were in dispute, the case dragged on for years.
It boiled down to a high-stakes legal battle over the definition of a firearm.
A four-year wait, a four-day trial
When the case finally came to trial last year, much of the four-day proceeding consisted of Nicolaysen, Roh's defense attorney, grilling ATF officials on arcane gun laws and regulations and the agency's internal decision-making process.
After both sides presented their evidence, the defense filed a motion for acquittal, arguing that the government's case against Roh was "legally flawed" because the charges were based on a violation of an internal ATF "classification" as opposed to federal law
.
Nicolaysen argued that the definition of a receiver under the relevant federal code differed in various ways from the AR-15 component Roh was accused of manufacturing.
Under the US Code of Federal Regulations, a firearm frame or receiver is defined as: "That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel."
The lower receiver in Roh's case does not have a bolt or breechblock and is not threaded to receive the barrel, Nicolaysen noted.
He called the decision to classify it as a firearm nonetheless, the result of "secret, in-house decision-making."
Nicolaysen accused the ATF of abusing its authority by pursuing Roh based on his alleged violation of a policy "that masquerades as law."
He asked the judge to consider recommending that then-US Attorney General Jeff Sessions conduct a review to determine whether there were any similar cases pending around the country or past convictions "sustained on the basis of ATF policy, rather than law."
Prosecutors acknowledged there were technical differences between the regulation and the lower receiver in Roh's case, but said the ATF's interpretation of the regulation was consistent with the intent of federal gun laws. The agency's reading of the law "should also receive deference from this court," prosecutors Shawn J. Nelson and Benjamin D. Lichtman argued.
Adopting the defense position, the prosecutors wrote, would be "manifestly incompatible" with the intent of the federal Gun Control Act and would "severely frustrate" enforcement of the law.
The prosecutors' filing said a ruling in favor of the defense could impact the receivers for up to 90% of the firearms in America.
"The necessary result of this would be that the unregulated parts could be manufactured, sold, and combined with other commercially available parts to create completed, un-serialized firearms which would not be subject to background checks, and which would be untraceable," the prosecutors wrote. "Defendant's interpretation would mean that nearly every semi-automatic firearm could be purchased piece by piece with no regulation or background check before a prohibited person would have a firearm."
'There is a disconnect'
Though the trial lasted less than a week, Selna deliberated for more than year. In April, he issued a tentative order in which he determined that the ATF had improperly classified the AR-15 lower receivers in Roh's case as firearms.
He rejected the prosecution's argument that the ATF's interpretation of the regulation describing a receiver could reasonably be applied to the device at issue in Roh's case.
"There is a disconnect," the judge wrote.

Selna added that the combination of the federal law and regulation governing the manufacturing of receivers is "unconstitutionally vague" as applied in the case against Roh.
"No reasonable person would understand that a part constitutes a receiver where it lacks the components specified in the regulation," Selna wrote.
Therefore, the judge determined, "Roh did not violate the law by manufacturing receivers."

The judge's tentative order also found that the ATF's in-house classification process failed to comply with federal rule-making procedures. Changes to substantive federal regulations typically include a notice-and-comment period and eventual publication in the Federal Register.
Selna did find that Roh was guilty of selling completed firearms without a license, subjecting him to a possible prison sentence.
Following Selna's tentative order, the prosecution and defense agreed to a deal in which Roh would plead guilty to the charge against him, but would be allowed to withdraw that plea if he stayed out of trouble for a year. Prosecutors would then dismiss the case. If Roh abides by the deal, he will have no criminal conviction and serve no time behind bars.
Sources familiar with the agreement said prosecutors wanted to strike a deal in order to prevent Selna's order from becoming permanent, drawing publicity, and creating case law that could hamper ATF enforcement efforts.
Roh accepted the deal to avoid a permanent conviction — and possible prison time — for dealing firearms without a license.
Nicolaysen declined to comment on the details of Roh's alleged activities, citing his pending diversion agreement.
But he said his client has left his firearms-related business behind and now deals in industrial vacuums.
Despite Roh's departure from the gun trade, the lawyer said, the issues surrounding his alleged practices remain.
"AR-15s, as we speak today, do not have a receiver by the definition of the existing law and that's a huge issue," he said. "It shows that the laws are obsolete and they're out of sync with the realities of today's firearms market."
Winkler, the UCLA law professor, offered a similar assessment.
When he was first informed of the judge's tentative order by a CNN reporter, Winkler said, "I thought the logic was crazy."
But after reviewing the order and several filings in the case at the request of CNN, he said Selna's rationale appeared legally sound.
"It does seem like there is problem," Winkler said
.

hide yo wife, hide yo kids, they rapin' e'erybody!
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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this dude Roh should have a follow on lawsuit against CNN for the title of the article. he did not mfg/sell illegal firearms
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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So lower receivers aren't actually receivers anymore by definition. Who's gonna test that one on non 80%ers? lol
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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So lower receivers aren't actually receivers anymore by definition. Who's gonna test that one on non 80%ers? lol
honestly, it sounds like "the solution" will be that upper and lower receivers will both require serial numbers, and they must match...or some similar bullshit. i'm not sure Congrss will be able to get together enough to make it happen, it is really interesting to see the ATF drop their shit because a judge said they don't have authority. i fawking hope one of these cases is able to make it further up.

end the damn ATF making shit up on the spot

i bought a gun the other day, and i had to leave the firearm while my background check/10 day period wait gets completed (FUCK YOU SEATTLE). took it all apart and left the dealer just the serialized bit, cuz, fuckit.
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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honestly, it sounds like "the solution" will be that upper and lower receivers will both require serial numbers, and they must match...or some similar bullshit. i'm not sure Congrss will be able to get together enough to make it happen, it is really interesting to see the ATF drop their shit because a judge said they don't have authority. i fawking hope one of these cases is able to make it further up.

end the damn ATF making shit up on the spot

i bought a gun the other day, and i had to leave the firearm while my background check/10 day period wait gets completed (FUCK YOU SEATTLE). took it all apart and left the dealer just the serialized bit, cuz, fuckit.
Yea something needs to change, because whether they wanted to set precedent or not they just did. That solution would suck, and end custom builds so fuck that.

Also fuck the ATF for the years of over reaching, its about damn time they had their pecker slapped a little.
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yea something needs to change, because whether they wanted to set precedent or not they just did. That solution would suck, and end custom builds so fuck that.

Also fuck the ATF for the years of over reaching, its about damn time they had their pecker slapped a little.
i'm not sure how to force the issue, but basically that is what it sounds like.

there is NO legal firearm on an AR style (2 piece) weapon when it is broken down into it's part's''s

"when is a car no longer a car?"

apparently a firearm is no longer a firearm once it is taken apart
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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legally speaking, it would seem that since there was no ruling made on it, that the ATF would need to attempt to get somebody on the 'same' charge, and the same defense would need to be used and a different judge would need to reach the same conclusion.

the ATF in their infinite wisdom will likely use this time to "reinterpret some shit" and the next person charged will be charged under some different shit to avoid this, again
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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legally speaking, it would seem that since there was no ruling made on it, that the ATF would need to attempt to get somebody on the 'same' charge, and the same defense would need to be used and a different judge would need to reach the same conclusion.

the ATF in their infinite wisdom will likely use this time to "reinterpret some shit" and the next person charged will be charged under some different shit to avoid this, again
Yep just passing the buck to the next guy. Honestly there probably won't be any change to how the ATF operates unless it goes to the supreme court so what difference does it make. Roh got lucky, it could have gone either way but his lawyer played it right and they got a judge willing to take the time to investigate the whole situation.
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Yep just passing the buck to the next guy. Honestly there probably won't be any change to how the ATF operates unless it goes to the supreme court so what difference does it make. Roh got lucky, it could have gone either way but his lawyer played it right and they got a judge willing to take the time to investigate the whole situation.
yup, it fucked him out of his business, his employees and several years of his life. the atf will gladly do that to the next guy

i hope he goes right back to stamping those fuckers out. i can't believe people were paying $1000 for a milled lower though

now that the new BS CA just signed, his services will be even more in demnad
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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So you guy's realize, Province's post gives the dickhead in sac ideas.
The internet is theirs to glean info from Also
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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So you guy's realize, Province's post gives the dickhead in sac ideas.
The internet is theirs to glean info from Also
not at all, the dickheads in Sac have just banned RAW FUCKIN' METAL and decided it all needs to be transferred through and FFL. this case came out of Los Angeles and the ATF requires federal reigning in.

totally separate. CA has it's own made up definitions for whatever it wants

hell, the whole jist of the article written on CNN was that it was supposed to highlight why we NEED gun control at a federal level. the author likely has no idea that the reality is they are sharing just how fucked the ATF is
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The assholes in sacto can't change the federal definition but most likely have to follow it.


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not at all, the dickheads in Sac have just banned RAW FUCKIN' METAL and decided it all needs to be transferred through and FFL. this case came out of Los Angeles and the ATF requires federal reigning in.

totally separate. CA has it's own made up definitions for whatever it wants

hell, the whole jist of the article written on CNN was that it was supposed to highlight why we NEED gun control at a federal level. the author likely has no idea that the reality is they are sharing just how fucked the ATF is
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Old 10-12-2019, 06:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
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That attorney earned his keep.
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Old 10-12-2019, 09:09 AM   #15 (permalink)
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ok lectric...or p.a.e???

Cal doj can draw up bullshit laws ALL DAY LONG and now screwsome will sign then!
Cal doj as drug its feet on the definition situation for how long now?
Anyone want to bet the new version covers anything we discovered was a weak link???
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The assholes in sacto can't change the federal definition but most likely have to follow it.
they don't need to change the federal definition, just make their own. they have already done this

what that means is that the ATF won't show up and raid you over having plate or castings or forgings, but the CA local PD and sheriff sure will. CA can easily create a whole new fuckin' "task force" to deal with this if it wants to.
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:21 AM   #17 (permalink)
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ok lectric...or p.a.e???

Cal doj can draw up bullshit laws ALL DAY LONG and now screwsome will sign then!
Cal doj as drug its feet on the definition situation for how long now?
Anyone want to bet the new version covers anything we discovered was a weak link???
it does, in a way.

the combination of the law last year (or 2017?) that requires any and all home made lowers to have a 'serial number' and then the law this year that requires any and all "precursor items" to go through an FFL.

Chunks of Metal has been redefined as a "precursor part". So now, somebody in CA who is doing what Roh was legally doing in CA, would be subject to either failing to secure an FFL (despite not being federally required) and failing to serialize home built lowers (despite not being federally required) and failing to report the transaction as a 'precursor part' (despite not being federally required) and not adding the resultant semi-auto rifle into the registry (despite registration being outright illegal federally many times over)
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Provience View Post
i'm not sure how to force the issue, but basically that is what it sounds like.
there is NO legal firearm on an AR style (2 piece) weapon when it is broken down into it's part's''s
"when is a car no longer a car?"
apparently a firearm is no longer a firearm once it is taken apart
that's how machine guns used to be
take the bolt out and hey, it can't shoot so it's just parts
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:46 AM   #19 (permalink)
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ATF should be disbanded. All gun laws should be rescinded.

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Old 10-12-2019, 11:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
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That's how California gun regulations read.
Not about a MG but still interesting to know the difference in carrying parts or a complete firearm dependant on a part here or there missing.

You can interpret the usefulness of this info yourself.




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Originally Posted by From Calif DOJ website

§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation...
11 CA ADC § 5471
BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
Barclays Official California Code of Regulations Currentness
Title 11. Law
Division 5. Firearms Regulations
Chapter 39. Assault Weapons and Large-Capacity Magazines
Article 2. Registration Requirement, What Qualifies for Registration, and Definitions
11 CCR § 5471
§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(a) “Ability to accept a detachable magazine” means with respect to a semiautomatic shotgun, it does not have a fixed magazine.

This one is why the guy selling AR15's in LA was aqquited (sp)
(b) “Action” means the working mechanism of a semiautomatic firearm, which is the combination of the receiver or frame and breech bolt together with the other parts of the mechanism by which a firearm is loaded, fired, and unloaded.

(c) “Barrel” means the tube, usually metal and cylindrical, through which a projectile or shot charge is fired. Barrels may have a rifled or smooth bore.
(d) “Barrel length” means the length of the barrel measured as follows: Without consideration of any extensions or protrusions rearward of the closed bolt or breech-face the approved procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100o F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the closed bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
(e) “Bullet” means the projectile expelled from a gun. It is not synonymous with a cartridge. Bullets can be of many materials, shapes, weights, and constructions such as solid lead, lead with a jacket of harder metal, round-nosed, flat-nosed, hollow-pointed, et cetera.
(f) “Bullet-button” means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock. A bullet-button equipped fully functional semiautomatic firearm does not meet the fixed magazine definition under Penal Code section 30515(b).
(g) “Bore” means the interior of a firearm's barrel excluding the chamber.
(h) “Caliber” means the nominal diameter of a projectile of a rifled firearm or the diameter between lands in a rifled barrel. In the United States, caliber is usually expressed in hundreds of an inch; in Great Britain in thousandths of an inch; in Europe and elsewhere in millimeters.
(i) “Cartridge” means a complete round of ammunition that consists of a primer, a case, propellant powder and one or more projectiles.
(j) “Centerfire” means a cartridge with its primer located in the center of the base of the case.
(k) “Contained in” means that the magazine cannot be released from the firearm while the action is assembled. For AR-15 style firearms this means the magazine cannot be released from the firearm while the upper receiver and lower receiver are joined together.
(l) “Department” means the California Department of Justice.
(m) “Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. An ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, spring and rivet/pin) constitutes a detachable magazine.
(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
(o) “Featureless” means a semiautomatic firearm (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) lacking the characteristics associated with that weapon, as listed in Penal Code section 30515.
(p) “Fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
(q) “Flare launcher” means a device used to launch signal flares.
(r) “Flash suppressor” means any device attached to the end of the barrel, that is designed, intended, or functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision. A hybrid device that has either advertised flash suppressing properties or functionally has flash suppressing properties would be deemed a flash suppressor. A device labeled or identified by its manufacturer as a flash hider would be deemed a flash suppressor.
(s) “FMBUS” means a Firearm Manufactured By Unlicensed Subject.
(t) “Forward pistol grip” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.
(u) “Frame” means the receiver of a pistol.
(v) “Grenade launcher” means a device capable of launching a grenade.
(w) “Permanently attached to” means the magazine is welded, epoxied, or riveted into the magazine well. A firearm with a magazine housed in a sealed magazine well and then welded, epoxied, or riveted into the sealed magazine well meets the definition of “permanently attached to”.
(x) “Overall length of less than 30 inches” with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)
(y) “Pistol” means any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which a projectile is expelled by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. This definition includes AR-15 style pistols with pistol buffer tubes attached. Pistol buffer tubes typically have smooth metal with no guide on the bottom for rifle stocks to be attached, and they sometimes have a foam pad on the end of the tube farthest from the receiver.
(z) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed beneath or below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. This definition includes pistol grips on bullpup firearm designs.
(aa) “Receiver” means the basic unit of a firearm which houses the firing and breech mechanisms and to which the barrel and stock are assembled.
(bb) “Receiver, lower” means the lower part of a two part receiver.
(cc) “Receiver, unfinished” means a precursor part to a firearm that is not yet legally a firearm. Unfinished receivers may be found in various levels of completion. As more finishing work is completed the precursor part gradually becomes a firearm. Some just have the shape of an AR-15 lower receiver for example, but are solid metal. Some have been worked on and the magazine well has been machined open. Firearms Manufactured by Unlicensed Subjects (FMBUS) began as unfinished receivers.
(dd) “Receiver, upper” means the top portion of a two part receiver.
(ee) “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(ff) “Rimfire” means a rimmed or flanged cartridge with the priming mixture located in the rim of the case.
(gg) “Second handgrip” means a grip that allows the shooter to grip the pistol with their non-trigger hand. The second hand grip often has a grip texture to assist the shooter in weapon control.
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)
(ii) “Shotgun with a revolving cylinder” means a shotgun that holds its ammunition in a cylinder that acts as a chamber much like a revolver. To meet this definition the shotgun's cylinder must mechanically revolve or rotate each time the weapon is fired. A cylinder that must be manually rotated by the shooter does not qualify as a revolving cylinder.
(jj) “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.
(kk) “Spigot” means a muzzle device on some firearms that are intended to fire grenades. The spigot is what the grenade is attached to prior to the launching of a grenade.
(ll) “Stock” means the part of a rifle, carbine, or shotgun to which the receiver is attached and which provides a means for holding the weapon to the shoulder. A stock may be fixed, folding, or telescoping.
(mm) “Stock, fixed” means a stock that does not move, fold, or telescope.
(nn) “Stock, folding” means a stock which is hinged in some fashion to the receiver to allow the stock to be folded next to the receiver to reduce the overall length of the firearm. This definition includes under folding and over folding stocks.
(oo) “Stock, telescoping” means a stock which is shortened or lengthened by allowing one section to telescope into another portion. On AR-15 style firearms, the buffer tube or receiver extension acts as the fixed part of the stock on which the telescoping butt stock slides or telescopes.
(pp) “Those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool” includes functional semiautomatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns with bullet-button style magazine releases. These weapons do not have a fixed magazine.
(qq) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.
(rr) “Threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer” means a threaded barrel able to accept a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer, and includes a threaded barrel with any one of those features already mounted on it. Some firearms have “lugs” in lieu of threads on the end of the barrel. These lugs are used to attach some versions of silencers. For purposes of this definition a lugged barrel is the same as a threaded barrel.
Note: Authority cited: Section 30900, Penal Code. Reference: Sections 30515 and 30900, Penal Code.
HISTORY
1. New section filed 7-31-2017; operative 7-31-2017. Submitted to OAL for filing and printing only pursuant to Penal Code section 30900(b)(5) (Register 2017, No. 31). For prior history, see Register 2011, No. 52.
This database is current through 9/27/19 Register 2019, No. 39
11 CCR § 5471, 11 CA ADC § 5471



Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
that's how machine guns used to be
take the bolt out and hey, it can't shoot so it's just parts
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Provience View Post
this dude Roh should have a follow on lawsuit against CNN for the title of the article. he did not mfg/sell illegal firearms
ROH agreed to take a charge of illegal manufacturer and sale of a firearm. He took a newly milled receiver and assembled and sold the firearm for 1k. but in the cases where the customers just milled the receiver that's where the feds lost because the judge ruled their rulings and guidelines weren't considered law.

And because of that ruling that the ATF rulings and guidelines weren't considered law the feds dropped the case because they didn't want the ruling to become case law. because it would have had a much much larger impact. Think federal land services, epa, etc. A lot of those agencies operate just like the ATF their rulings aren't law and this law would have caused some havoc until congress wrote a law that non of us want. IE agencies can write laws
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citzen_Hawk View Post
ROH agreed to take a charge of illegal manufacturer and sale of a firearm. He took a newly milled receiver and assembled and sold the firearm for 1k. but in the cases where the customers just milled the receiver that's where the feds lost because the judge ruled their rulings and guidelines weren't considered law.

And because of that ruling that the ATF rulings and guidelines weren't considered law the feds dropped the case because they didn't want the ruling to become case law. because it would have had a much much larger impact. Think federal land services, epa, etc. A lot of those agencies operate just like the ATF their rulings aren't law and this law would have caused some havoc until congress wrote a law that non of us want. IE agencies can write laws
ah gotcha.

i will 100% take the chance of saying the agencies can't write laws and that they must come from congress

congress has made plenty of laws that nobody wants, but still much fewer than what the states/fed agencies have done
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Old 10-12-2019, 02:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Stoner MUST be rolling over....
Anyone read the thread on calguns?
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Old 10-12-2019, 04:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by clb 017 View Post
Stoner MUST be rolling over....
Anyone read the thread on calguns?
link?
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up is difficult, down is dangerous

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keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
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Old 10-12-2019, 04:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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one of the links in this sub.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...splay.php?f=71

Quote:
Originally Posted by clb 017 View Post
Stoner MUST be rolling over....
Anyone read the thread on calguns?
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Last edited by ParadiseAutoElectric; 10-12-2019 at 04:48 PM.
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