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Old 10-20-2019, 02:23 PM   #901 (permalink)
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Well, if you want to be very reliable in my suggestions, sometimes even reduce the actual performance maybe inattention, and this is because no one would accuse my messages of exaggerating their parameters ... (as most "inventors" do) Here it is clearly seen that I forgot to draw a crankshaft with a 2500 mm stroke ... which causes my engine to be one degree smaller .. And no one can complain about the geometry ...
Here is my 600 ccm model which I keep in my hand..No unfinished because I am sick ..





http://new4stroke.com/halfrotatedxf.dxf

Andrew

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Old 10-20-2019, 07:38 PM   #902 (permalink)
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And of course the old sclerotic I forgot about the most important, .. that this engine does not need oil for lubrication .. because only the rings require lubrication, which in the case of diesel fuel can be sufficient and in petrol engines lubrication with 1: 50 ratio of oil to fuel .. But it can be Teflon at all, because the temperature of the cooled water piston will not be higher than these 130 degrees Celsius ..

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Old 11-05-2019, 10:55 PM   #903 (permalink)
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Do you know how much engine power goes to overcome losses in the timing mechanism? When designing, it is assumed that it is 10% of the maximum power of this engine .... But, after all, it is very rare to use the full maximum power .. to maintain speed in the city - 50 miles, usually not more than 20% of this is used maximum power .. .. But then the same amount of power goes to the camshaft ... as if we used the maximum power ... So, in fact, in driving in the city the timing drive goes up to 50% of the power used then ... we still have to overcome as much resistance as braking with a 4-stroke engine. I learned about it when I was driving a car with a two-stroke engine, which practically did not have engine braking ... So in summary - the timing drive and pressing the valve springs - I think, on average, there is 50% of the currently used power, which we need to overcome, thanks to our fuel. .. believe me.



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Old 11-14-2019, 06:42 AM   #904 (permalink)
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Here, such false graphs are:

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...4V4_Mba2uTqzBg

There was once a discussion on this subject .. I used to think so until 1980 ... But later I looked at it differently and I know, as a result of years of reflection and experience, that all this is sucked from the finger, these heat and mechanical losses, unfortunately .. Here is an evident example showing that the resistance to movement of the crankshaft and the camshaft is several times larger, so these charts are a complete fairy tale ..
And that's why they are not building new efficient engines ... previous engineers. and until they revise their views, they will not build a better engine .. Here you stubbornly do not see that my engine with the same capacity, the main piston sucks 3 TIMES more air into the cylinder, and you try to compare it to a traditional engine that sucks 3 times less ,, And you say that the losses on my pistons according to these graphs are much larger .. Yes, maybe (but I'm not sure) but they suck these 3 times more charge into the cylinder and This is an undeniable physical basis, but my engine must be more efficient , no matter whether you acknowledge or not...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1n...ature=youtu.be

You can see that the shaft itself is very light, you can turn the hand, it is very difficult to mount the camshafts, even using a long arm wrench .. I think that even 5 times more force is needed for this .. I used to rotate several engines that I modernized and I repaired and I know that this is a big difference in this strength .. And this will also be confirmed by every efficient engine mechanic...
And that's why modern engineers, unfortunately, put them down and are unable to make a working engine from 23 HP to 250 HP ... and until they start to find out, however, it is, they will not do it ... And I do a lot so that they deign find out ... until health allows.



These and this graph shows that the valve train movement resistance, despite increasing the turnover by 6 times, does not consume more energy .. It's some wonders, because they also have their inertia, and bearing resistance also increases, similarly to the resistance in shaft bearings crankshaft ... and as a result of increasing turnover from 1000 to 6000, this green space should be much wider ... .. and this indicates a very unreliable development of this chart. Because the valves also have their inertia, which increases with the square of revolutions, and thus the friction in the drive system of these valves also ...


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Old 11-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #905 (permalink)
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I'll bite.
I watched the youtube animation with the piston valve setup and I can't say that I can see the point? It looks like it would run, but I can't say that I can see any advantages except for the possibility of an over expanded cycle which doesn't appear to be really done here. In fact it kind of looks like the opposite of that during expansion.

Problems I see:
1) Thin/wide combustion chamber at ignition so you'd get long, inefficient burn duration and potentially high UBHC's in the extra crevices.
2) The extra pistons give even more spots for UBHC's to hide out.
3) More surface area of the combustion chamber makes for more thermal loss, one of the biggest hurdles to high BTE's in current ICE's.
4) Poor valve "curtain area equivalent" so your vol. eff. isn't going to be very good NA. Calculate your transfer port area dt vs. even a conventional 2-valve OHV head.
5) Oil control of the upside down pistons is going to make it burn oil, exceed ubhc's, and knock like a mofo.

Your youtube video about spinning the crankshaft of a 3.5 by hand makes no sense to me either, looks like the plugs and injectors were in it so you were fighting compression at low speeds=thermodynamic and compression loss measured in an unscientific way.


Pick up a copy of Heywood and read it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:07 AM   #906 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I'll bite.
I watched the youtube animation with the piston valve setup and I can't say that I can see the point? It looks like it would run, but I can't say that I can see any advantages except for the possibility of an over expanded cycle which doesn't appear to be really done here. In fact it kind of looks like the opposite of that during expansion.

Problems I see:
1) Thin/wide combustion chamber at ignition so you'd get long, inefficient burn duration and potentially high UBHC's in the extra crevices.
2) The extra pistons give even more spots for UBHC's to hide out.
3) More surface area of the combustion chamber makes for more thermal loss, one of the biggest hurdles to high BTE's in current ICE's.
4) Poor valve "curtain area equivalent" so your vol. eff. isn't going to be very good NA. Calculate your transfer port area dt vs. even a conventional 2-valve OHV head.
5) Oil control of the upside down pistons is going to make it burn oil, exceed ubhc's, and knock like a mofo.

Your youtube video about spinning the crankshaft of a 3.5 by hand makes no sense to me either, looks like the plugs and injectors were in it so you were fighting compression at low speeds=thermodynamic and compression loss measured in an unscientific way.


Pick up a copy of Heywood and read it.

Helpful, thanks.

How would it fair as an ECE (to wit, a steam engine)?
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:22 AM   #907 (permalink)
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I'll bite.
I watched the youtube animation with the piston valve setup and I can't say that I can see the point? It looks like it would run, but I can't say that I can see any advantages except for the possibility of an over expanded cycle which doesn't appear to be really done here. In fact it kind of looks like the opposite of that during expansion.

Problems I see:
1) Thin/wide combustion chamber at ignition so you'd get long, inefficient burn duration and potentially high UBHC's in the extra crevices.
2) The extra pistons give even more spots for UBHC's to hide out.
3) More surface area of the combustion chamber makes for more thermal loss, one of the biggest hurdles to high BTE's in current ICE's.
4) Poor valve "curtain area equivalent" so your vol. eff. isn't going to be very good NA. Calculate your transfer port area dt vs. even a conventional 2-valve OHV head.
5) Oil control of the upside down pistons is going to make it burn oil, exceed ubhc's, and knock like a mofo.

Your youtube video about spinning the crankshaft of a 3.5 by hand makes no sense to me either, looks like the plugs and injectors were in it so you were fighting compression at low speeds=thermodynamic and compression loss measured in an unscientific way.


Pick up a copy of Heywood and read it.

It is not surprising that you are trying to evaluate a project according to your knowledge about heat .. with this knowledge about heat, it is like a warming climate .. A lot of noise about nothing .. but good, let there be large heat losses .. but there is this heat 40% more and you didn't take that into account in your criticism ... besides, in the animation you can only see the cross-section through the center of the engine, not the combustion chamber .. because where do you see the spark plug or the injector? the combustion chamber is "behind the cross section", but you have to carefully observe with a positive attitude in the pictures of the "head" on my side .. besides, this combustion chamber has the fastest swirls from known engines and ... the smallest surface on which combustion takes place .. because the rest of the combustion does not take place, but at most pressure does not work after the load is burned, in the smallest combustion chamber, from known engines .. It's to calm you down ... for starters ... for a little bit, you'll learn about the advantages studying for a while on this site .. well, unless you don't have time, then you will not know how to make a powerhouse from 23 HP to 250 HP .. Your business what you choose ... And you will not learn new knowledge soon ... because something completely new, and you have to think a little bit too ... but I promise you it's worth ...

New 4 stroke engine


Andrew

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Old 11-14-2019, 11:25 AM   #908 (permalink)
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BTW , many aircraft engines even had pistons pointing downwards during World War II, but you didn't know it ...
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:32 AM   #909 (permalink)
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Helpful, thanks.

How would it fair as an ECE (to wit, a steam engine)?
I'm far from an expert in the latest in reciprocating steam engine design but I'd guess that something similar had already been tried by the early 1900's. There were smart people trying everything back then. Piston ported steam engines were a similar, but more straightforward (and probably more efficient) version of this.

I'd hazard a guess that a steam turbine is going to blow even the most efficient reciprocating steam engine out of the water, regardless of how it's valved. At least for any modern steam application

My crystal ball does suggest opposed piston two-strokes may be getting revisited in the not so distant ICE future, but they are quite a bit different than the OP's thing, and also have been around since the OP was probably born. The main motivation is an over-expanded cycle for more BTE.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:48 AM   #910 (permalink)
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I'm far from an expert in the latest in reciprocating steam engine design but I'd guess that something similar had already been tried by the early 1900's. There were smart people trying everything back then. Piston ported steam engines were a similar, but more straightforward (and probably more efficient) version of this.

I'd hazard a guess that a steam turbine is going to blow even the most efficient reciprocating steam engine out of the water, regardless of how it's valved. At least for any modern steam application

My crystal ball does suggest opposed piston two-strokes may be getting revisited in the not so distant ICE future, but they are quite a bit different than the OP's thing, and also have been around since the OP was probably born. The main motivation is an over-expanded cycle for more BTE.

Look at your crystal ball again ... and don't say you saw such a solution at the beginning of the 20th century, because it hurts ...



Andrew

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Old 11-14-2019, 11:52 AM   #911 (permalink)
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It is not surprising that you are trying to evaluate a project according to your knowledge about heat .. with this knowledge about heat, it is like a warming climate .. A lot of noise about nothing .. but good, let there be large heat losses .. but there is this heat 40% more and you didn't take that into account in your criticism ... besides, in the animation you can only see the cross-section through the center of the engine, not the combustion chamber .. because where do you see the spark plug or the injector? the combustion chamber is "behind the cross section", but you have to carefully observe with a positive attitude in the pictures of the "head" on my side .. besides, this combustion chamber has the fastest swirls from known engines and ... the smallest surface on which combustion takes place .. because the rest of the combustion does not take place, but at most pressure does not work after the load is burned, in the smallest combustion chamber, from known engines .. It's to calm you down ... for starters ... for a little bit, you'll learn about the advantages studying for a while on this site .. well, unless you don't have time, then you will not know how to make a powerhouse from 23 HP to 250 HP .. Your business what you choose ... And you will not learn new knowledge soon ... because something completely new, and you have to think a little bit too ... but I promise you it's worth ...

New 4 stroke engine


Andrew
I can barely understand what you're trying to say, but I will try.
"swirls" or charge motion isn't always a good thing. Charge motion in general is inversely proportional to air flow because the energy to spin the mixture has to come from somewhere. If you've got a good chamber design and DI injection system, you don't much of it anymore. You have neither.

Something I missed the first time I looked at the animation was the MASSIVE volume of residuals in that valve piston chambers. That's going to be bad for everything. High un burned hydrocarbons, long burn duration, etc.

Your "combustion chamber" surface area is very large, whether you see that or not. You won't be able to have zero clearance between the valve pistons and their "head" at tdc of them. Because of this you're going to have long thin paths for the flame to try to travel which it won't be able to quickly. Read about crevice volume and why it's bad, you've got tons of it.

I believe you believe that your concept is a radically different design of internal combustion engine, however the basic principals of ICE operation are very much applicable to it. Think of it as a conventional engine with really poor valve timing, high valve train friction, poor combustion surface area to clearance volume ratio, and high crevice volume. If you'd take the time to read Heywood I think you'd be time ahead. Unless you're just trying to drum up investors as part of a scam, in that case carry on.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:57 AM   #912 (permalink)
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Look at your crystal ball again ... and don't say you saw such a solution at the beginning of the 20th century, because it hurts ...



Andrew
So you invented the Atkinson engine in 1882 then decided to throw out most all it's advantages and draw up the mess of an engine concept I see in your animations?
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:06 PM   #913 (permalink)
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So you invented the Atkinson engine in 1882 then decided to throw out most all it's advantages and draw up the mess of an engine concept I see in your animations?
No, this is my original idea, and I made a diploma thesis at the university, then some additional ideas, including my original ones ... if you think they are not mine, present a drawing from this year 1882 ... because I don't know him

Andrew

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Old 11-14-2019, 12:06 PM   #914 (permalink)
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Buy this book and READ it:


https://www.amazon.com/Internal-Comb...3758250&sr=8-2
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:15 PM   #915 (permalink)
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I can barely understand what you're trying to say, but I will try.
"swirls" or charge motion isn't always a good thing. Charge motion in general is inversely proportional to air flow because the energy to spin the mixture has to come from somewhere. If you've got a good chamber
design and DI injection system, you don't much of it anymore. You have neither.
Something I missed the first time I looked at the animation was the MASSIVE volume of residuals in that valve piston chambers. That's going to be bad for everything. High un burned hydrocarbons, long burn duration, etc.

Your "combustion chamber" surface area is very large, whether you see that or not. You won't be able to have zero clearance between the valve pistons and their "head" at tdc of them. Because of this you're going to have long thin paths for the flame to try to travel which it won't be able to quickly. Read about crevice volume and why it's bad, you've got tons of it.

I believe you believe that your concept is a radically different design of internal combustion engine, however the basic principals of ICE operation are very much applicable to it. Think of it as a conventional engine with really poor valve timing, high valve train friction, poor combustion surface area to clearance volume ratio, and high crevice volume. If you'd take the time to read Heywood I think you'd be time ahead. Unless you're just trying to drum up investors as part of a scam, in that case carry on.
You look at my engine for too short ... the turbulence is forced mechanically by the suction piston, and there is no whether it wants or not because it MUST ...
Besides, do not accuse me of fraud, because it is too easy to do, and probably the same and you are trying to plant another about it .. Because you did not apologize to me for your incorrect assessment of my engine, although you already know that they are not true.

Andrew
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:28 PM   #916 (permalink)
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the turbulence is forced mechanically by the suction piston, and there is no whether it wants or not because it MUST ...
So you think turbulence in incoming air charge is a good thing, and the energy to form it comes from magic?


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Besides, do not accuse me of fraud, because it is too easy to do, and probably the same and you are trying to plant another about it .
I am not, I'm accusing you of trying to compare your dumpster fire to an Atkinson cycle opposed piston engine which is a thermodynamically superior engine design.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:20 PM   #917 (permalink)
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So you think turbulence in incoming air charge is a good thing, and the energy to form it comes from magic?




I am not, I'm accusing you of trying to compare your dumpster fire to an Atkinson cycle opposed piston engine which is a thermodynamically superior engine design.
Well, somehow I can't wait for this Atkinson picture from 1882 from you ... well, let me tell you what my brilliant engine you are trying to compare ...

https://suw.biblos.pk.edu.pl/resourc...Parametrow.pdf

Your guru from the heat, Lord Kelwin, also claimed that the machine was heavier than air he can't fly ... and enough to look at the birds ... but he probably thought it was a divine thing that they were flying ...
And for me, this energy is "magic", because not like Ricardo's in the swirl chamber, that once he must enter it through a very small hole, and then after igniting, go out into the cylinder also through this microscopic hole .. For me magic it consists in the fact that the load flows only to one source, and is burned, in addition, it protrudes through the hole several times than in the Ricardo chamber ... so "magically" does not lose energy almost at all. and it has even better swirling .. in the smallest exhaust piston cycle .. And in the garbage can, you can throw away most of the books that you propose, because they do not even give me how to calculate the intake volume ... let alone how to make an engine from a 600 ccm base to draw 3000 ccm. But you won't find out about it from the animation. because you will learn as much from it as if you were looking at the animation of a classic engine, and claimed that you are because of that a guru from classic engines .. Only reliable research and prototypes can show some view on the quality of my engine .. But you can't afford even to come and see how the engine works .. You prefer to suck the accusations of someone unfounded, only ...

Andrew

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Old 11-14-2019, 02:28 PM   #918 (permalink)
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So you think turbulence in incoming air charge is a good thing, and the energy to form it comes from magic?




I am not, I'm accusing you of trying to compare your dumpster fire to an Atkinson cycle opposed piston engine which is a thermodynamically superior engine design.
Well, somehow I can't wait for this Atkinson picture from 1882 from you ... well, let me tell you what my brilliant engine you are trying to compare ...

https://suw.biblos.pk.edu.pl/resourc...Parametrow.pdf

Your guru from the heat, Lord Kelwin, also claimed that the machine was heavier than air he can't fly ... and enough to look at the birds ... but he probably thought it was a divine thing that they were flying ...
And for me, this energy is "magic", because not like Ricardo's in the swirl chamber, that once he must enter it through a very small hole, and then after igniting, go out into the cylinder also through this microscopic hole .. For me magic it consists in the fact that the load flows only to one source, and is burned, in addition, it protrudes through the hole several times than in the Ricardo chamber ... so "magically" does not lose energy almost at all. and it has even better swirling .. in the smallest exhaust piston cycle .. And in the garbage can, you can throw away most of the books that you propose, because they do not even give me how to calculate the displacement ... let alone how to make an engine from a 600 ccm base to draw 3000 ccm. But you won't find out about it from the animation. because you will learn as much from it as if you were looking at the animation of a classic engine, and claimed that you are because of that a guru from classic engines .. Only reliable research and prototypes can show some view on the quality of my engine .. But you can't afford even to come and see how the engine works .. You prefer to suck the accusations of someone unfounded, only ...

Andrew
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:18 PM   #919 (permalink)
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... well, let me tell you what my brilliant engine you are trying to compare ...

https://suw.biblos.pk.edu.pl/resourc...Parametrow.pdf

<wall of indecipherable magic mushroom babble>

.. Only reliable research and prototypes can show some view on the quality of my engine .. But you can't afford even to come and see how the engine works .. You prefer to suck the accusations of someone unfounded, only ...

Andrew
Wow, this is epic hilarity:
  1. The guy you're talking shit to (larboc) knows, professionally, what he's talking about, yet you don't listen
  2. Your dissertation has Atkinson in the title and Heywood in the bibliography, but you must've skimmed that part
  3. You're convinced that your overcomplicated design (with inherent inefficiencies that larboc is nicely pointing out) magically violates the laws of physics and thermodynamics

By all means, Please continue

Be right back, I'm gonna' make some popcorn and maybe take a shit
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:31 PM   #920 (permalink)
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I'm far from an expert in the latest in reciprocating steam engine design but I'd guess that something similar had already been tried by the early 1900's. There were smart people trying everything back then. Piston ported steam engines were a similar, but more straightforward (and probably more efficient) version of this.

I'd hazard a guess that a steam turbine is going to blow even the most efficient reciprocating steam engine out of the water, regardless of how it's valved. At least for any modern steam application
They would not have been able to machine something like that shape in the 1880s. So even if it that shape had been hypothesized it likely would not have been built.

But you are correct that a turbine is far better, so why even bother except for the curiosity factor?
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:51 PM   #921 (permalink)
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Wow, this is epic hilarity:

By all means, Please continue

Be right back, I'm gonna' make some popcorn and maybe take a shit
How lighter are you? .. I know ... But such people pretend to be professionals, but they make nonsense arguments ... and I have to refer to them in public, what every time in a new, maybe better way ... Well, for example today I was able to mention the Ricardo swirl chamber, which was once popular, but because of low efficiency it fell down ... and I have a new argument to make public .. So, all in all, these people are not completely useless, and they encourage me, to a new way of arguing the efficiency of my engine .. Because understanding it, despite its simplicity, is not easy yet. I know it myself, but I am already after the pain of giving birth, so I tell others that it can hurt ... I have had these pains for a long time, despite the fact that in this engine I am supposed to be the most experienced mother .. Well, who would have thought that the engine which has 600 ccm, will have 3000 ccm suction? Well, I could agree on 1000 ccm, but not 3000 ccm. To such an extent, I didn't believe myself that as I found out, I almost died when I stood next to the engine, which suddenly turns into 10,000 rpm. .. and to this day he writes about these results of thoughts ... and I see that, however, there is no magic ... But it's probably because my name is Felix, which means, after all, happy ...

Andrew
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:07 PM   #922 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Feliks View Post
How lighter are you? .. I know ... But such people pretend to be professionals, but they make nonsense arguments ... and I have to refer to them in public, what every time in a new, maybe better way ... Well, for example today I was able to mention the Ricardo swirl chamber, which was once popular, but because of low efficiency it fell down ... and I have a new argument to make public .. So, all in all, these people are not completely useless, and they encourage me, to a new way of arguing the efficiency of my engine .. Because understanding it, despite its simplicity, is not easy yet. I know it myself, but I am already after the pain of giving birth, so I tell others that it can hurt ... I have had these pains for a long time, despite the fact that in this engine I am supposed to be the most experienced mother .. Well, who would have thought that the engine which has 600 ccm, will have 3000 ccm suction? Well, I could agree on 1000 ccm, but not 3000 ccm. To such an extent, I didn't believe myself that as I found out, I almost died when I stood next to the engine, which suddenly turns into 10,000 rpm. .. and to this day he writes about these results of thoughts ... and I see that, however, there is no magic ... But it's probably because my name is Felix, which means, after all, happy ...

Andrew
With the awesomeness of your insight and innovation, why are you telling us? Should you not be publishing? You owe it to humanity.
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:14 PM   #923 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliks View Post
How lighter are you? .. I know ... But such people pretend to be professionals, but they make nonsense arguments ... and I have to refer to them in public, what every time in a new, maybe better way ... Well, for example today I was able to mention the Ricardo swirl chamber, which was once popular, but because of low efficiency it fell down ... and I have a new argument to make public .. So, all in all, these people are not completely useless, and they encourage me, to a new way of arguing the efficiency of my engine .. Because understanding it, despite its simplicity, is not easy yet. I know it myself, but I am already after the pain of giving birth, so I tell others that it can hurt ... I have had these pains for a long time, despite the fact that in this engine I am supposed to be the most experienced mother .. Well, who would have thought that the engine which has 600 ccm, will have 3000 ccm suction? Well, I could agree on 1000 ccm, but not 3000 ccm. To such an extent, I didn't believe myself that as I found out, I almost died when I stood next to the engine, which suddenly turns into 10,000 rpm. .. and to this day he writes about these results of thoughts ... and I see that, however, there is no magic ... But it's probably because my name is Felix, which means, after all, happy ...

Andrew
And, once again, you skip over the uncomfortable truths

You quoted the bullshitting part of my post, but not the difficult part:
  1. The guy you're talking shit to (larboc) knows, professionally, what he's talking about, yet you don't listen
  2. Your dissertation has Atkinson in the title and Heywood in the bibliography, but you must've skimmed that part
  3. You're convinced that your overcomplicated design (with inherent inefficiencies that larboc is nicely pointing out) magically violates the laws of physics and thermodynamics

Try addressing that^ or, more importantly, address the technical aspects of what [email protected] took time to type out for you. I don't know him at all, but I've read enough on Pirate to know that you should take his engine performance feedback seriously. It appears he is giving you the insight of an industry veteran and you are the example of
Quote:
...such people pretend to be professionals, but they make nonsense arguments ...
But you probably know you're just jerking off, so you evade the hard truths with glib comebacks and cute distractions. If you wish to be taken seriously, sober up and address larboc's concerns.

Or not - this is just another bullshit thread in Chit Chat, after all
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:51 PM   #924 (permalink)
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Your dissertation
That's not his dissertation...
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Old 11-14-2019, 07:27 PM   #925 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CrustyJeep View Post
That's not his dissertation...
Well, Google translate said "ROZPRAWA DOKTORSKA" = "dissertation"

EDIT: wait, is it not his? OK, fuck that guy
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Last edited by ExWrench; 11-14-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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