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Old 04-20-2009, 11:59 AM   #301 (permalink)
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Tires drove fine under the truck I bought them from. miles and miles of highway. rear springs are 400 iirc and fronts are 500 over 300. .375" of toe in, I've tried other values even toed out with no help. If you look at that picture you quoted you will notice there are no springs and the shock is bottomed out, at static ride height castor is at 3.5 degrees as measured with a digital inclenometer. Geometery wise I took no "liberties" aside from adding some triangulation to the rear and not welding my track bar mount to the pumpkin.

Front static sag is about 10", I can't remember what the rear is. As far as shock placement goes, the shocks are mounted very similar to stock, since no shock mountin provisions were provided in the "kit" that was all I really knew to go on. A friend of mine with a jeep with a 4-link rear and similar shock placement doesn't have ANY of these tendencies even with the body rolling around corners.
To test, I setup a laser from the back rotor to pointing to a board on the front tire and jacked up one side of the back of the scout about 4" and the rear axle rotated a little less than .5 degrees in the direction of the lean. The farther I went the worse it got.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:43 AM   #302 (permalink)
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Up to this point, I've been quiet with your attempts to discredit me. But I have to draw a line somewhere, and I think I'll start here.

Is this an attempt to re-gain some favor from the railing you got over being a mud guy (seen above)? Must be ~ "Blame D&C and the vocal POR guys will love you" must be the theory there. I mean, you've tried to use it in the past and since it can't possibly be something else....

I've used that 4-link system on rigs for the past 9 years. All of which have seen driving time on the road at speed up to 90mph. Your problems are probably not 4-link geometry. Seriously.

Even Rusty, with the softest spring rates around drove on the highway at 50+ and through town in a parade. I even drove it 'kinda crazy' at higher speeds on dirt roads around Indy with no really noticeable problems. ONLY when I did donuts did it lean way over to the side, but that was full throttle, wheels cranked and throwing mud like there was no tomorrow ~ all on 200# springs!

Similarly, Project 2 had about the same lift you have, did it pitch over? Nope. Given it didn't drive on the street much but I destinctly remember driving it across town at legal street speeds ~ AND THAT WAS 1/4 Elliptic.


Hum... almost ten years of doing these and no one has had the problems you are having. Doesn't steer straight, is that really a 4-link problem? Did you turn your knuckles with all that lift? H


My goodness man. I told you that on Project 2 we put them paralell, but EVERY OTHER BUILD TO DATE we've put a small V in the lower links moving the lower mounts outward. The brackets AND the joints are built with a little something called 'mis-allignment' spacers. You can move them out ~ which I suggested in the first place. If you don't believe it, check post number 6 in this thread where I put:


Seriously, and on a more calmer note: LOOK OTHER PLACES

*MY* first place to look would be your front axle. Did you turn the knuckles? I'm going to assume you didn't. Defending not doing one you said in post 122:
No offense, but problems turning at 20+ mph and not being able to keep the Scout straight sounds like a caster issue.

Somewhere around post 120ish Scott suggested using the adjustable upper link in the front to adjust your pinion. Did you do that? I noticed I haven't seen any pictures of the front end recently so I can't confirm it, but if so, you may have screwed your caster. Anyone whose driven a rig without proper caster knows how it can make things go crazy. Looking at this picture on post 162ish ~

It looks like you've got to much caster ~ which can have similar problems. Even Mech found that right off. Looking through the build, its hard to see if you've corrected that.

With all due respect, I never expect lifted rigs without a cut-n-turn to drive worth a dang. I don't think anyone here would either ~ but if you don't cut-n-turn, you should at least insure you angles are not WAY off.

Second place to look. Alignment. Get that thing aligned. NUMEROUS drivability problems have been solved with an alignment. Expecially a professional one.

If you can't afford it, put the front axle on jackstands. If possible, put the motor in gear and shift your t-case so that only the front axle spins. Take a wax pencil or some soapstone and hold it against the spinning tire's tread ~ do both sides. Then measure between the lines (at the front and back of the tire). Most people simply use a tread block to do this, the 'line' method is more reliable and you'd be surprised how off you can get it by guessing what tread blocks to use.

Tires would be the next place I'd look. How old are the tires, are they round? Up till recently this Scout looks to be using old military tires. Not that 44' gumbo's are going to behave any better (even new) This Scout has been sitting for a LONG TIME. AT LEAST through the winter, but we all know that its sat longer.

On Minibuild #13 the customer brought some tires that he got cheap. They mostly held air, but upon driving the Scout around the block, it wouldn't drive. I checked everything, alignement, caster, angles, everything. Nothing helped. Then one of the tires lost preasure suddenly and we secured a better set of tires ~ whose conditions in a driveable vehicle was known. All the driveability problems went away. We even found a new caliper sticking causing a pull.

My point is, it's easy enough to borrow some decent tires from a friend. Ones you know drive well down the road. With the size of the tires, probably underinflated, having sat for however long (ya, I know, my fault too) its quite possible that even if new when installed, they are causing some problems. Remembering that caster problems could be magnified by the tires as well as alignment.

Next, having personally done a few of these ~ many of them have had the same amount of lift you claim on your rig, some more, some less. I'd consider looking at your spring rates. I recall You wanted your own spring rates. I don't remember the exact rates you used, but I do remember having to special order some front springs for you. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500# rates.

What's the rear at again? Is it close? If I read your post, the front is good, the back is leaning ~ like having too much body roll. Spring rates have to be matched. I dont know how many times and where I've stated this, but frankly its not said enough. The rates must be matched and paired together ~ if not (and remembering the overly stiff front) the front will be rock solid and the rear will tend to sway due to spring rates ~ nothing else.

Your scout is heavy. Your front spring are mounted out pretty far. They're stiff, and the shocks seem placed for maximun effiency. The rear, on the other hand, probably have lower spring rate, mounted inward from the ends of the axle, and the shocks are even closer than the springs.

Seriously, what effect do you think that has? Insuring matched spring rates and proper shock placement is another place I'd look.

Wierd indeed. Larboc, this kit has been used several times with great results. Instead of automatically trying to throw me under the bus, why don't you do ask find-out questions about what could the problem be. Just quickly reading through the build I've noticed a few things you did that I would warn against. I'm mentioned a couple here.

I realize some of you POR guys are 'D&C' haters. You love to rail me everywhich way. But the complaints normally begin and end with 'delivery time'. Yes, there is was a problem with a cage kit sent to Mech ~ Chi's rocksliders didn't get coated. RT simply hates my guts without any business dealings with me. However, suspension design is not one of my weak points, and ALL of you know that. You've all seen me put together this kit on Scouts big and small over the years without these problems. Take a look at how this 'kit' was installed. Does it look like any of my builds? Larboc volenteered this build for a kit, I gave it to him for UNDER my costs. By the looks of things (and finding things I've found simply by looking at the pictures in the build), Larboc has obviously taken 'liberties' to mount and futz with the kit as he deemed nessasary. Fine. Should we expect a different INITIAL outcome?

The next thing out of your mouths will be 'Customer Service' ~ and what of it? Here I am getting railed over something that probably isn't the fault of the kit and I'm here, despite your critizism, offering suggestions and doing what Larboc should have done the second he had problems. Did Larboc PM or email me prior to posting this? No. Could he have? Yes. Could I have done more to help Larboc with his problems prior to this post? No. Have I offered suggestions throughout this build? Yes.

In short ~ and for the record ~ given the FACT that my link suspensions do not and have not behaved this way on any other build I can remember, I do not believe the problems reported by Larboc are problems with my XLC system. That said, I have looked over this build, and offered very pointed comments and suggestions about what the cause of the problems could be REGARDLESS of the obvious bad sediment ~ justified or not.

So stop shooting then aiming. Aim, shoot.
Don't bring me into your pissing contest and trivialize the issues I had with you to as to just missing powercoating. There have been plenty of other people who have posted on this board regarding ill fitting parts, missing parts, non delivery, non communication, and on and on and on........ etc from D&C.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:58 AM   #303 (permalink)
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I guess the whole spring/summer thing is over and we are back to winter.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:15 AM   #304 (permalink)
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Tires drove fine under the truck I bought them from. miles and miles of highway.
Good to know. It looked like the tires were spared use until the last possible second, but not knowing their condition ~ effects things.

Quote:
rear springs are 400 iirc and fronts are 500 over 300
.
It'd be best to double check that rear rate.

A stock Scout's spring rates are 325# front and #300 rear according to the guys who built the 'Triangle' springs for Giddem up Scout and supplied them to the LightLine dealers. I even called SkyJacker, and I think I also talked to Alcan, to check their rates to see how much they differ. My worry is that you have near a 200# spread up front and about #100 between the front and back ~ where stock is around 25# depending on what numbers you use.

My thoughts are that (figuring rate and placement of springs and shocks) the rear rate is too low. I'd also recommend replacing the front 300# spring with one of a higher rate ~ either that or lower the 500# a bit. Perhaps a #400/450 front with 400 rear, or 450/500 front w/ 450 rear.

Remembering, of course, the proper way to figure out spring rates is not by guessing but by weighing the rig, measuring spring/shocks mounts from the wheel, and using the calculators supplied by Sway-a-way and other shock manufacturers. Considering they build for racing, and you're into mud ~ the rates should be pretty good for your purposes.

Quote:
at static ride height castor is at 3.5 degrees as
For 44" tires, IMO, that's quite a small amount of caster ~ Id be looking at 6 myself.

Quote:
aside from adding some triangulation to the rear
I assume you're talking about the truss to the axle right?

Quote:
shock placement goes, the shocks are mounted very similar to stock, since no shock mountin provisions were provided in the "kit" that was all I really knew to go on.
I understand, remember the kit "wasn't" when you were building your rig. But since we've changed the front shock locations, and how they act (by virtue of having coil-overs) ~ changing the rear mounts my be a good idea to increase their effeciency as we have the fronts.

Quote:
A friend of mine with a jeep with a 4-link rear and similar shock placement doesn't have ANY of these tendencies even with the body rolling around corners.
Perhaps ~ I'm not doubting it ~ but jeeps have shorter wheel bases, are normally much lighter, and may or may not have the same springs and or lift that you have.

Quote:
To test, I setup a laser from the back rotor to pointing to a board on the front tire and jacked up one side of the back of the scout about 4" and the rear axle rotated a little less than .5 degrees in the direction of the lean. The farther I went the worse it got.
This puzzles me and ~ if I understand what your saying corrently ~ shouldn't be. It sounds like you removed the rear tires (probably using jack stands) and secured a laser pointer (pointing forward) to the rear disc. Then, with the front axle on its weight, jacked up one side of the rear axle and observed how far the laser moved (inward) as the jack lifted the rear axle.

I'm not sure how far 1/2 a degree is by your measurement, I'm also not sure if I'm understanding how you measured this movement, if the scout was secure (meaning if the board was tied down and/or the scout was on solid ground). Not that I doubt what your saying but there is allot left to assumptions and I can't tell anything other than it appears you're working in a field at the moment. If you simply leaned up a board against the front tire and started jacking up a rear tire which in which would jar the rig and possibly move the board, thats one thing. Now if you have secured the Scout on stands on a level and hard floor, removed the rear springs, set the axle on stands at ride height, secured a board to the floor, set up the laser pointer and marked its inital spot, then jacked up the axle and marked the resulting spot ~ that's another thing all together.

Please understand that my interest is to find out what youre experiencing and assist in finding a solution. As you know, you choose to participate in the making of this kit ~ what you got was not a 'kit' but a prototype of a kit. You were to give feedback and help with its further refinement. Which you have not done, choosing instead to blab that the 'kit' is defective giving no rhym or reason and supplying even less proof. You have not asked about mounting of the shocks and ignored the way I mounted the shocks. Further, you have not consulted over spring rates, and now assert (which means to declare one's views forcefully without proof) that the problems you, and you alone, are facing are defects with a product that has been in use, in one form or another for 9+ years on MULTIPLE vehicles ranging over 3 makes and 5 models. That, I take slight offense too ~ expecially given your audience (which is why I'm reacting so forcefully)

Since you are the only person that has experienced these symptoms I'm extremely interested in finding what's causing it and helping you cure it ~ whatever it may be ~ whomever's fault it may be. Are you facing a problem with the suspension or is it something else? I have stake in that, and why I'm glad that you volenteered your participation. Perhaps your situation is unique, or perhaps it has uncovered a flaw in an otherwise proven system for both street use and extreme wheeling. However, if we're only shooting in the dark and jumping to conclusions, my help with the problem is quite limited and the chance of finding any solution at all is bleak at best.

Honestly, I appericiate your reply as it was helpful. I'm purposefully being direct in my reply's ~ not to be rude, but to weed the out and get to the root of what your experiencing. Of course, I would have rathered you consulted with me before making a blanket accusation. However, I scratched my head for a few minutes trying to figure/picture what you've experienced and done with both road and laser test. I understand that it is difficult for a student to take the time and futz with this problem ~ expecially in a way that is harder than just throwing up a board and using a jack. I know you would rather be jumping into your scout and tearing through some trails. Frankly I'm hopeful that outcome is right around the corner.

Bummer on the snow man. We had a storm roll through last weekend, looks like it ended up at your back door.
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Old 10-06-2009, 04:56 PM   #305 (permalink)
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Forgot about this thread, I've kinda been driving it.
I may have jumped to conclusions a little bit.
The steering cylinder had a bend in the rod, I replaced it and it drove x11 better. Still has rear steer and is a handfull to drive, but I owe Daimen a bit of an APOLOGY as it isn't nearly as bad as I thought.

Videos from our clubs bog, incase you missed the thread and give a rat's hind end.
In cab full run through bog.
YouTube - Ride In Scout

Me flopping it on it's side.
FAIL!1one
YouTube - International Rollover
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Old 10-06-2009, 05:00 PM   #306 (permalink)
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Forgot about this thread, I've kinda been driving it.
I may have jumped to conclusions a little bit.
The steering cylinder had a bend in the rod, I replaced it and it drove x11 better. Still has rear steer and is a handfull to drive, but I owe Daimen a bit of an APOLOGY as it isn't nearly as bad as I thought.
No apology needed dude ~ I'm cool if your cool
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Old 04-01-2010, 10:32 AM   #307 (permalink)
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well, the bushings that attached the wrists to the radius arms arn't strong enough to be operated with one disconnected, with a big block and 44's anyway.

Squeezed the poly bushing out of there like toothpaste and the resulting downward pinion angle blew out my front driveshaft wheeling last weekend.

Going to be replacing one of them with a heim, and then three linking it this summer.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:06 AM   #308 (permalink)
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well, the bushings that attached the wrists to the radius arms arn't strong enough to be operated with one disconnected, with a big block and 44's anyway.

Squeezed the poly bushing out of there like toothpaste and the resulting downward pinion angle blew out my front driveshaft wheeling last weekend.

Going to be replacing one of them with a heim, and then three linking it this summer.
The problem is the axle end of the lower links correct?



If so, Why not cut the bushing off and weld in a bung and go to a Ballistic or Johnny joint? I'd sure give that a go before starting over...
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:13 AM   #309 (permalink)
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no it's the "the bushings that attached the wrists to the radius arms".

smaller leaf spring sized poly bushing, not in that picture. goes into the bracket on top the radius arm. The big ones on the bottoms are ok, not sure why he downsized the one that blew out.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:25 AM   #310 (permalink)
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no it's the "the bushings that attached the wrists to the radius arms".

smaller leaf spring sized poly bushing, not in that picture. goes into the bracket on top the radius arm. The big ones on the bottoms are ok, not sure why he downsized the one that blew out.
Well, if'it's 2" ID, that is a rod end with misalignment width. Ruff Stuff has a great deal on 7/8" rod ends, spacers and bungs. This would also give you a bit of adjustment on the castor / drive line angle.

Ruff Stuff also had some undersized misalignment spacers for a 1-7/8" OAL, that he might still have.

Again, I'd try that first...
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Old 04-18-2010, 09:53 PM   #311 (permalink)
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playing around with catia

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Old 04-18-2010, 10:00 PM   #312 (permalink)
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ref pics
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:14 PM   #313 (permalink)
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wow no leafs yet in those pic's. Is that a C6 tranny?
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:25 PM   #314 (permalink)
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wow no leafs yet in those pic's. Is that a C6 tranny?
umm, those pics are from winter in ks way back, however we have no leafs up here in the U.P. of Michigan yet. The picture was to show what the cad model was of. and it's a zf
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Old 08-17-2014, 04:50 PM   #315 (permalink)
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Great build start not so great end. I own a rhd scout as well and plan on linking the front. Looking for advice. Why did you run the pitmanarm backwards? Also did you extend the front wheelbase with the front linking? I know this is an old thread but I just read through it, not bad
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:39 AM   #316 (permalink)
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Dug it out of the rhubarb for some quick fun followed by hours of pressure washing last weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_MSiZUhl0M
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:40 AM   #317 (permalink)
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Great build start not so great end. I own a rhd scout as well and plan on linking the front. Looking for advice. Why did you run the pitmanarm backwards? Also did you extend the front wheelbase with the front linking? I know this is an old thread but I just read through it, not bad
Ran it backwards so I could but all the steering linkages behind and above the axle. I think the front axle is a few inches forward of stock, don't remember.
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