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Old 03-19-2008, 11:33 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Oh, Jeff ~ speaking of sway bars. Where do you mount them. I've seen them in back, but I'm not 100% on where you normally mount them in front. If you can post some pictures for me ~ to give me an idea ~ that'd be great.

If anything, if we get two different sizes, I'll use the stiffer one in back (as a 4-link is more prone to sway than a 2-link).
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:01 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Oh, Jeff ~ speaking of sway bars. Where do you mount them. I've seen them in back, but I'm not 100% on where you normally mount them in front. If you can post some pictures for me ~ to give me an idea ~ that'd be great.

If anything, if we get two different sizes, I'll use the stiffer one in back (as a 4-link is more prone to sway than a 2-link).
Here are a couple of pics of different projects where we used them both front and rear with leaf sprung suspensions. I feel that locating them on a coiled rig will be a tad tougher as the coils/coilovers are right in the spot where the arms normally cycle. I have a few ideas but have yet to test them out(see PD's build as I'm waiting on parts). I'll get the swaybars ordered and will try to get some more of a common bar to begin with. Is 36" long gonna be fine or do you want something a touch wider(we normally use 36" bars on the Scout II's)? If theres a choice do you prefer pillow block mounts or delrin bushings that fit 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" tube? The delrin bushings will be much easier on my pocket book.
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:20 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I feel that locating them on a coiled rig will be a tad tougher as the coils/coilovers are right in the spot where the arms normally cycle.
Yupper ~ that's goign to make it tight. My immediate thought is putting the front one before the front axle and the rear one behind the rear axle with the arms facing towards each other.
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I have a few ideas but have yet to test them out(see PD's build as I'm waiting on parts).
Ya, saw that in the build. Its amazing how I can be quoted a week turnaround for 'on the shelf' parts, and then end up waiting 2-3 months. The first few XLC kits I put together were like that ~ I guess the problem was I ordered to much and they figured they'd wait till it was 'comfortable' to ship. Anyway, I feel your pain in that department.

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I'll get the swaybars ordered and will try to get some more of a common bar to begin with. Is 36" long gonna be fine or do you want something a touch wider(we normally use 36" bars on the Scout II's)? If theres a choice do you prefer pillow block mounts or delrin bushings that fit 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" tube? The delrin bushings will be much easier on my pocket book.
The Delrin bushings is fine, and I'd perfer it honestly. Its just that the rear bar will be mounted to tube work, and putting tube to tube is a matter of a hole-saw. For the front, I'll figure something out. Perhaps a RuffStuff Shackle Hanger welded to the frame ~ clean, simple, strong.

36" if fine as well. Gives a little clearnace on the frame. Since I"m planning on mounting the front one up to the front of the frame, can I get one of those nifty bend arms that helps clear the steering box?
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:53 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I've seen some of the front sway bars mounted behind the radius arms buckets with the links run as far forward as possible and mounted to the outside of the radius arms. Tire and driveshaft clearance is an issue on those, though. And generally you have to have a much stiffer rate to make up for the extended arms.

And, at least in the rear, have you ever used the arms with extra holes in the arms for adjustment?
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:04 AM   #105 (permalink)
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On the anti-sway bars..

In the rear, where the frame is or was is where the air-bumps should be mounted - perhaps they can be mounted outboard of the frame, or sunk right into the frame, but wider is better.

With the coil overs mounted to the trailing arms, that frees up space around the axle.

A WIDE anti-sway could be mounted forward of the axle and come out around the coil overs. Dunno how nicely that'll work out.

Or a NARROW one could be inboard of the frame and mount up to the inside, but would be less effective.

Both scenarios, with the bar forward of the rear axle, would require careful placement of the bar to make sure the driveshaft doesn't get into it at full bump (since we're planning 4-5" of up-travel beyond horizontal)

The upside to mounting it forward is we're keeping the weight centered on the chassis, and it's already a strong area of the chassis.

Mounting the bar to the rear frees up some room, but then it has to be mounted to the rear cage structure that hasn't been built yet. As long as it's far enough away from the rear bumper to avoid damage, we'd be fine. From this direction, it works out nice to have the coilovers on the trailing arm, giving LOTS of room to mount the anti-sway bar to the axle just behind the coilover.

Up front things get a little more crowded with the shocks mounted to the axle, along with the panhard and everything else.

One thing that I just thought of is to make sure that when the bars are mounted, they'll ALWAYS move with axle movement. Maybe it's a non issue, but I was thinking that the swing of the axle needs to be taken into account when mounting, so you don't get a "dead" spot where bar's natural arc of travel and the axle's arc match up such that they negate each other and "no movement" happens. But since we're mostly concerned with one side going up and one down, maybe it's a non issue. If anyone does think this situation can happen, then it's more important to mount the sway-bars near the pivot point of the suspension.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:09 AM   #106 (permalink)
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He's got a great point. I think that the new racer will need quite a bit of tweeking and adjusting as things get wore in ~ or Tom gets more crazy . Tweeking is always a natural part of a racer's life ~ expecially with an all new rig to thrash on. I do believe leaving things 'off the shelf' lengths will be benificial to the 'maintainance' aspect down the road.
Ease of maintenance is a big issue for me. I don't just drop it off at RacePrepInc. between events.. it goes back to my shop, and if I'm feeling energetic, I go over it. If something is actually broken, the broken piece gets fixed, and a lot of other stuff gets overlooked due to time constraints.

Ideally the new rig would debut late this summer with time enough for at least one race as a shakedown and a winter to make corrections. Dunno how realistic that is, given time and money constraints (and all of the other crap I keep thinking I want to get done), but it would be ideal.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #107 (permalink)
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36" if fine as well. Gives a little clearnace on the frame. Since I"m planning on mounting the front one up to the front of the frame, can I get one of those nifty bend arms that helps clear the steering box?
I'll be sending both front and rear arm sets with the drop bend in them(those are in stock). I'll get the matching delrin bushings for the 1 1/4" swaybars. As for width these are the options in 1 1/4" 48 spline(which is what I'm sending you) - 32", 33", 34", 35", 36", 36.5", 37.5", 38.5", 39", 40.5", 42" and 43". And then of course each length has multiple spring rates to choose from. Also, some are solid bars and some are tubular and vary thickness.

Do you want me to send you the arms first so that way you can mock up different widths on the chassis to see what works best? You can substitute the actual swaybar for a regular piece of tubing. The other part I need to know is what length links you might need as I only keep one size in stock but again I can order in a different length or use 1" tube with threaded inserts(that way you can fab them up whatever length needed).
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:06 AM   #108 (permalink)
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So I can use 1" tube to mock up the sway bars right ~ meaning I fit 1" tube in the arms and tighted the arms on it like it was splined right? If so, we can do that for mock up, but I think 36" will be the bars we use.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:21 AM   #109 (permalink)
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So I can use 1" tube to mock up the sway bars right ~ meaning I fit 1" tube in the arms and tighted the arms on it like it was splined right? If so, we can do that for mock up, but I think 36" will be the bars we use.
Yes and no. You will need 1 1/4" tube for mockup and probably have to sand down the ends a bit in order to fit them into the splined arms.
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:18 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Yes and no. You will need 1 1/4" tube for mockup and probably have to sand down the ends a bit in order to fit them into the splined arms.
Man, you high-dollar pros.

1" (or 1 1/8) tube and a roll of duct-tape! Just wrap it around the end until you get a decent fit. It'll even give the arm clamps something to bite into, but when you're done, the 1" tube can be recycled into a tie-rod.

Not like we REALLY need a good fit for mock-up purposes.

I definitely think a mock-up width would be a good thing so we can experiment with bar placement fore/aft and inside/outside.

On a related subject, Willy Cunningham has stepped up and offered to sponsor as much bailing twine as we need. I guess they have it aplenty in Wyoming, and Willy has both an SSII and a KB, so he probably has a good stash set aside.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:09 PM   #111 (permalink)
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1" materials for a TieRod? ARe you mad! We're high-dollar pros, we use at least 1 1/4"

Willy C! Great guy. Can't wait to use whatever bailing wire he's got stashed. Its probably the good stuff, since he's used to having to hog-tie rowdy teenagers.

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Old 03-20-2008, 12:16 PM   #112 (permalink)
 
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Gee thanks Tom... Now every yahoo with a "race" truck will be hounding me for sponsorship. Quick tech tip for Damian: the twine wont work for exhaust hangers you need to use the bailing wire...

now get back to work!
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:44 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Thanks for the tip there Willy ~ I'll be sure to remember that.

IF ANYONE HAS SOME 118" QUARTER PANELS, PLEASE HELP, WE'RE DESPERATE. EITHER somewhat rusty if fine but cleanly cut off so I can ue them for skins, or if someone is nice enough to help the build with some new FB ones, even at a discounted price, that would be great! Please let me know.
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:03 AM   #114 (permalink)
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ABC junkyard off royer st had a decent travler but that was about 2 months ago. skins didnt look to bad.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:37 AM   #115 (permalink)
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May have to call Monte and ask what they want.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:07 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Swaybar arms, bushings and links are on the way. I sent two different sets of links to give you options on length.

On the quarter panels might want to call Coonrod and ask him if he has any.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:32 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Awesome news. Thanks Jeff.
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Old 03-29-2008, 01:28 PM   #118 (permalink)
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On the swaybar subject again..

Final decision can't be made until the engine is in place, but with the engine moved back, couldn't the anti-sway bar be mounted at the front of the frame, and the arms run rearward INSIDE the frame?

They would probably have to stop in front of the front axle, if only because I suspect that's about where the radiator will sit (an inch or so forward of stock, when indexed to the crank, but still ~11" back from the grille).

As long as the steering doesn't get in the way..

That way you'd have the coil-overs outboard of the frame, the air-bumps IN the frame (or nearly so) and the sway-bar links INSIDE of the frame.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:18 AM   #119 (permalink)
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PUtting the swaybars inside teh frame means they won't have much leverage to do their job.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:22 AM   #120 (permalink)
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PUtting the swaybars inside teh frame means they won't have much leverage to do their job.
No argument there, but if it doesn't fit otherwise..

Plus, to combat the less effective sway-bar, we compensate with a higher rate bar.

Just like changing arm-length on the bars.
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Old 04-03-2008, 10:47 AM   #121 (permalink)
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MAN,,WHAT A COOL BUILD,,,IS BUILDS LIKE THIS THAT GETS ME OUT TO THE GARAGE AND FINISH MY JUNK UP,,,GOOD WORK

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Old 04-14-2008, 11:38 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Holy moses! I haven't updated this thread in a bit. I guess its time.

Finished up the rear X in the main hoop.


Door bar in.


A little change up on the door bar is to bend it out to give more elbow room. This wouldn't work if we had doors in there, but for a racer, its good.



Dash bar in ~ this will serve as the start of the racers dash. This one is DOM, the rest will probably be smaller diameter non-dom.


The front skins were then put on for some figuring on the engine compartment cage work.



But I couldn't help but to draw up a tube bumper
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:19 PM   #123 (permalink)
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With a tube base set, an old steering box was mocked up to see where I could put the shock mounts.


Quickly I realized that I didn't like that placement of the hoops. So after a quick conversation with Tom, we decided to move the box forward, and then use some shock-towers like P3 had.

This would allow a REAL strong coil-over mount that could be expanded to two shocks if needed.

The front tube worked ended up like this.


Paul got a little taste of being married welding things in.

(he's in the dog-house ~ get it?)

Everything welded. Just need to mount the steering box and mock up the sway bar.


The rear tube work and coil-over mounts were next. Looing at things in retro-spect the first mockup of the coil-overs in the arms was a little high.


But I knew we needed to cut out the rear frame to make room for the coil-overs and their coils ~ which would have rubbed the frame pretty hard with the old frame.

To narrow the frame and get the height we wanted to fully comress the rear suspension, I used more 2" DOM and bent two identicle lengths to create the rear 'frame' section.


The forward section of frame will be stuck into the stock frame and welded in, then we'll plate that open area to keep things strong and clean.


While jack stands kept the tubes level, a ratchet strap and some bars were used to snug up things until we had the rear tubework level and square.

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Old 04-14-2008, 12:35 PM   #124 (permalink)
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With the back end square, we (Paul and I) started building connection the two rails with more DOM


Ummm ~ welding.


Paul like it!


Next we had to jack the axle up to full stuff.


This will bring the truss just above level with the TOP of the rear tube work. If the stock frame was still there, the truss work done earlier would be interfering with the frame...


The shocks could then be put at full compression and tubes bent that will serve at the shock's mounting points.




From the back.


As you can see, the tubes didn't have to be nearly as high as I suspected them, this was a relief adn I was having a fair bit of trouble trying to figure out how to arrange the tube work back there!

This system ended up pretty nice. Better still is that I've now got a VERY nice place to put a custom fuel cell! Stay tuned.
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:40 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quickly I realized that I didn't like that placement of the hoops. So after a quick conversation with Tom, we decided to move the box forward, and then use some shock-towers like P3 had.

This would allow a REAL strong coil-over mount that could be expanded to two shocks if needed.

Is it moving forward, or just outboard of the frame a bit with a thicker-than-normal frame plating job?

If moving forward, after redrilling the frame, the new holes will need sleeved and both sides of the frame should be plated.

Quote:
The front tube worked ended up like this.
Looks like there's still room to relocate the master cylinder (and booster) outboard towards the A-pillar a bit, so long as the booster doesn't hit the tube work (and the smaller double-diaphragm unit can be used to make it a more compact package)

As we'd emailed, it'll also help with the power-steering pump-to-master-cylinder clearance, too (even after going to the truck style pump to make a tighter package)

Quote:
The forward section of frame will be stuck into the stock frame and welded in, then we'll plate that open area to keep things strong and clean.
And the "higher" rear frame/bar that ties into the B-hoop will help triangulate this area into a big truss design, to reinforce everything. Gussets to that effect will help, too, to keep the rear backbone strong.

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Next we had to jack the axle up to full stuff.
The next most critical item to get mocked in place is the engine, transmission, and transfercase so we be positive of where "full stuff" really is.

For those following along at home..

The rear trailing arms (lower links) are around 37" OAL eye to eye. 22" to the first hole, 29" to the second shock mount (as you go to the rear).

With an expected rear driveshaft in the 40" range (like a stock SII typically has, keeping in mind we plan to move the engine back 12", but the wheelbase was stretched ~13" in the rear)..

Using a 30-deg angle we can get nearly 20" of vertical travel from "horizontal driveshaft" to "down at 30-deg"

For long life, we want to run less than 30 (that's about the MAX) and the last time I ran some numbers I was coming up with stuff like this:

We're using a 16x2.5" SAW remote-reservoir coil-over, so 16" of travel at the rear set of holes.

We can't get the shock to go 16" down and still keep a driveshaft in it (16" down from horizontal), so to make the most use of the shocks, we have to allow the pinion to come up ABOVE the rear output, at about a 5-deg slope.

The math then works out such that we can run a max droop of 27-28 deg, with 5-deg up travel, using ~16" of coil-over travel for 22" of axle (vertical wheel) travel, and the secondary shock mount (closer to the center of the chassis) would be ready for a 12" stroke shock (this could be another 2", or 2.5" shock, or a 2.5 or 3" triple-or-quad-bypass shock)

Which comes back to why it's so important to get the engine/trans/tcase in place, and verify that we're at a 5-deg up slope to the pinion at full-bump.

The reality is that that 5-deg of uptravel is probably going to be used very little, since it's likely that that area of travel will be where the 4" stroke air-bumps kick in, and hopefully we won't be needing all 4" of stroke most of the time.

For the numbers junkies, that was 22" of rear wheel travel if everything pans out like I think it should.

Quote:
This will bring the truss just above level with the TOP of the rear tube work. If the stock frame was still there, the truss work done earlier would be interfering with the frame...
And if it turns out this still isn't enough up-travel, we can always cut out the lower tube (now that it's all built into a big truss design) and add a bent hoop in it's place to let the axle come up a bit more.

Quote:
The vertical support you added should be a good starting point for the air-bump mounts, which ideally will be out as near to the drum backing flange as practical, to try and squeeze the most out of the suspension, without the need for a secondary bump system when articulated (if we ran the air-bumps straight-up-down under the "frame" we'd need traditional bump stops at the axle ends to deal with a twisted-up rear axle, but if we mount the air bumps at the ends, we serve both purposes, plus we get more uptravel before the air bumps need to kick in)
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