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Old 04-24-2010, 10:57 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Very helpful

Thanks Tom. Couple more questions if you don't mind.

Is over boring necessarily a good idea if it isn't required?

Is increasing compression ratio necesssarilly a good idea with my goals in mind? (slightly longer legs, preservation of the low end grunt and reliability)

Sounds to me like I ought to be thinking about the following list to build a better running daily use engine;

Lightening
Balancing
Cam
Valve Springs
Headers
Porting

Probably, I should stay stock on bore if I can, and don't try to increase compression. This vehicle already has the AFI TBI on it, so I will be keeping that. Regarding the cam, if I'm reading the spec right, it looks like stock is .440 lift on the intake, and 264 degree duration. Cams I am seeing are .45 to .490. intake lift, and up to 270 degree duration. For what I am looking for what do you think a good lift and duration would be? also, from the specs in the manual, I cannot tell what rpm range the stock cam is tailored for.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:14 AM   #102 (permalink)
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another question

What is the largest bore you can do to a 304 block?
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:26 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Farragher View Post
Thanks Tom. Couple more questions if you don't mind.

Is over boring necessarily a good idea if it isn't required?
You get more cubes.

OTOH, you spend more money.

It's another $250 if you have to bore your 304/345 and go with new pistons.

Make it $400 if it's a 392. So if you don't have to bore it, don't.

OTOH, my .060 392 went from 392 cid to 404cid. Stroking the crank (a simple offset grind) took the 404 to 406cid.

Quote:
Is increasing compression ratio necesssarilly a good idea with my goals in mind? (slightly longer legs, preservation of the low end grunt and reliability)
It's almost always a good idea, unless you plan on going to Mexico and running on Pemex fuel.

You can go up to 9:1 with no ill effects from the stock 8:1, and gain some power and efficiency.

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Probably, I should stay stock on bore if I can, and don't try to increase compression. This vehicle already has the AFI TBI on it, so I will be keeping that. Regarding the cam, if I'm reading the spec right, it looks like stock is .440 lift on the intake, and 264 degree duration. Cams I am seeing are .45 to .490. intake lift, and up to 270 degree duration. For what I am looking for
what do you think a good lift and duration would be? also, from the specs in the manual, I cannot tell what rpm range the stock cam is tailored for.
I believe ALL aftermarket cams raise the power band over the stock grind. Even a so-called "RV" grind is higher than the stock cam.

Rebuilding the motor, porting the heads, or changing the cam (any one of 'em) will probably mean some retuning of the AFI system to adjust for the new characteristics of the engine.

Quote:
What is the largest bore you can do to a 304 block?
Pretty big if you're willing to pay for it. Eventually you have to sleeve the cylinder bores to keep the water out of the cylinder.

.060 over is commonly available and a safe number.
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:40 PM   #104 (permalink)
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One last question

Thank you for all of this helpful information. I have one more question. Is there a a way to calculate what piston could be used to increase the compression to 8.7, or 8.8 to 1? I am assuming that domed pistons are the best(simplest) route to take, to increase compression.
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:47 PM   #105 (permalink)
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OTOH, my .060 392 went from 392 cid to 404cid. Stroking the crank (a simple offset grind) took the 404 to 406cid.

that has to be a record for the least a crank has ever been stroked.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:03 PM   #106 (permalink)
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that has to be a record for the least a crank has ever been stroked.
Doubtfull.

Just offset grind it enough to use .040 undersized bearings.

Cheap, easy.

Don't have to get into different rods that way, nor did I have to clearance the block or anything.
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Old 05-27-2010, 04:23 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Finally - the stubborn 304 that was originally slated to donate the bottom end to Robert's project finally gave up it's goods last night (It was compelled through the use of a torch, plasma cutter, die grinder, drill, WD40, and excessive amounts of blunt force trauma administered through a calibrated 3lbs BFH).

I Robert was going to send a bottom end over next week, but since it came apart (finally) I paid the machine shop a visit today.

A crank is off to get turned (.010/.010), the rods to get resized, the block line honed, shot-blasted (it'll come to you bare - no paint), then the block gets the bore job, deck is squared, rods and pistons meet each other, and they'll assemble the short block (no cam, no front cover).

Then we can get it shipped off to Billings.

No ETA yet, but at least they're no longer waiting on me.

(Still need to drop off a balancer and flexplate before they can balance everything)

They finally got back my Maulis head from the flow bench in Great Falls, but still didn't have the flow bench paperwork handy.
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Old 05-28-2010, 02:38 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Robert, It's Jim Maulis. I like your new project, late style 345 heads you picked up from me. As I remember they were milled .060, L88 chevy intake valves, FE427 exhaust valves. The valve springs were matched for a .500" plus cam that Scott at MPG heads ground for the heads. Scott did all the port and valve work . I have a factory IH race head that came off one of the Baja Scouts. The above heads flowed better than the IH race head, but can't remember the numbers.
Finally got the flow #s back from the machine shop.

FYI $75 to flow bench this time (seems to me it was $40 a few years back and a LOT faster turn around time - I dropped the head off in December)

The GRT 304 heads on the old mill peaked at 178cfm and 132cfm at 0.5"

The Maulis/MPG 345 heads flowed to 191.6cfm (@ 0.4) and 158.0 @ .6"

Back at 0.5", that's 184.3 and 148.2.

Intake goes DOWN after 0.4" but stays at 183 even at .650" lift.

Exhaust falls off slightly to 156.8 at .65" lift.

Both intake and exhaust are just under 100cfm at 0.2"

So, that's 13cfm peak gain on the intake (but a lot more area under the curve over all) and 26cfm gain on the exhaust (and again, more area under the curve) going to these 345 heads vs the 304 heads.

On the other hand, stock 392 heads flow better on the intake at 196, and the unmolested exhaust at just 136 is at a disadvantage over these heads.

Another set of ported 345 heads showed more exhaust (164) and a hair more intake average.

DaveSr's work netted a peak of 209cfm intake (@0.6), and 143.5 exhaust @ 0.6".

So, Maulis/MPG bested Dave's best exhaust, and given the restrictive nature of our exhaust stuff anyhow, adding more intake flow would just make the whole thing lopsided.

I'm going to check the head at home to see if it was marked where the crack is - the machine shop claims to have a fantastic head welding guy.. maybe he could get them back to me by Christmas..

What does all of that mean? Not really sure yet..

I think it means I want a cam that'll flirt with 0.6" of lift to reach the exhaust peak.

I have Isky, Schneider, the stock grind, and 71Scout2's custom CompCams figures handy.

The big Schneider and 71Scout2's grinds are the only two that are adding torque above 2000rpm - the rest are dropping.

Schneider 262/282
hp/lbs-ft
169/444 @ 2000
214/450 @ 2500
348/406 @ 4500
348/365 @ 5000

72Scout2
hp/lbs-ft
150/392 @ 2000
194/406 @ 2500
354/413 @ 4500
373/391 @ 5000
376/359 @ 5500
359/314 @ 6000

The big Isky cam might be my favorite thus far since it will still make ~350hp while making gobs of torque at lower RPM. In short course work, you spend a lot of your time accelerating and decelerating. If I were thinking of drag racing again, I might go for the peakier CompCam grind, but that's not a goal this time.

Isky 270
hp/lbs-ft
169/443 @ 2000
210/442 @ 2500
347/405 @ 4500
349/366 @ 5000


For fun.. with a stock IH grind:
Stock
hp/lbs-ft
175/459 @ 2000
214/450 @ 2500
311/362 @ 4500
296/311 @ 5000

(For comparison, the current racer and 304 based engine should be something like the following - I don't have the right numbers for the custom grind we used
150/394 @ 2000
188/394 @ 2500
301/351 @ 4500
295/310 @ 5000
)

None of the numbers are truly awe inspiring if you consider them against anything other than a dump truck engine.

(and all of this has little to do with JetFxr's blown 304 project except they have a common machine shop)

Code:
3.06
Race345Flow
0
6
1 2.090
1 28.000000
1 0.200000
1 0.300000
1 0.400000
1 0.500000
1 0.600000
1 0.650000
1 99.20000
1 150.1
1 191.6
1 184.3
1 184.3
1 183.1
1 1.734
1 28.000000
1 0.200000
1 0.300000
1 0.400000
1 0.500000
1 0.600000
1 0.650000
1 93.6
1 120.2
1 135.5
1 148.2
1 158.0
1 156.8
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Last edited by tsm1mt; 06-01-2010 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Added the head-flow file
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Old 05-29-2010, 06:25 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Tom, I'm trying to make a little sense of this, are those numbers for a worked over head on a 304?

I've got a set of NIB Jahn's domed pistons, the big Comp Cams cam, and a few other goodies. I hadn't done anything with them earlier because I have a 304 and there was no 4bbl intake available at the time. So, when I get my 80 done and out of the garage I'll roll the SII in and have some fun with the motor.
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Old 05-29-2010, 12:24 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Robert (JetFXR) the IH Rod is looking gooooooood

Mr. Maulis, welcome to PBB.
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Old 05-29-2010, 03:34 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Tom, I'm trying to make a little sense of this, are those numbers for a worked over head on a 304?
The last set of numbers are for *my* rather peculiar worked over 304 with the heads the GRT ported for me about 10 years ago. That's the 10+:1 304 in my old racing Scout.

The others are all simulations of the new "345" stamped race engine with the Maulis heads and a few varieties of cam. This engine should also be 10+:1

(Over on the BinderPlanet I did more comparisons with my planned bottom end and the Maulis heads, stock 345 heads, and stock 392 heads)

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Old 09-12-2010, 12:58 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Robert, how's the hotrod project coming along?
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:10 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Robert, how's the hotrod project coming along?
I have a flex plate, but Robert hasn't sent over a harmonic balancer yet - but the machine shop called and they're done with everything but the balance and assembly, and wanted some money.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:58 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Project is kinda back burner, Tom is handling the short block (cash is on the way) it will be going this winter. I am sending the cab and chassis out for paint soon, bottom line I keep myself in so many projects I can't keep up, did you see the hand control Scout........The hotrod will be a winter project and hopefully done this spring, will post up as the project moves along. Did I tell you I am doing a all for free hand control Scout for a guy in a chair, looking for parts and support
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:57 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Yeah, I saw that thread on Just IH the hand control Scout is a very cool project for a well deserving guy
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:20 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Seems like I never have anything to do and winter in Montana is coming on. So the engine is paid for and should be back in Billings soon

Looky what I got today, these are intake manifold flanges so I can proceed with the blower/sheet metal intake. Jamey a fellow IHer in Montana swapped me some machine work for an OD five speed. Next he will be putting together the drive pulleys for the motor.

As soon as the hand control Scout gets rolling good the 34 will make it to the shop for a fun filled winter.

Hey Tom he has this saved in CAD so I tolg him you also wanted a pair.....
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:08 PM   #117 (permalink)
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The smallest bottom pulley i could put on the stock crank hub was a 57 tooth, but that is an 8mm pulley a 1/2 in, 11mm, 13.9mm, or a 14mm pitch will be a different tooth count.

Can i ask why if you are making a sheet metal intake why didn't you go with the 345 heads.

My setup is 345 contour heads with flat pistons that way i can overdrive the blower.

Edit
A small piece of advice i would give is to make your manifold a little to wide, that way if the flanges warp when you weld them they can be surface ground down.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:49 PM   #118 (permalink)
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I am using 345 or 392 heads, one reason I am making my manifold is the RPT will not work with the 304 block and larger heads. Also need this to be as low as possible so you will be able to see out the windshield. I am thinking with an RPT manifold the blower will be very high. Part of the build is learning what can and can not be done. Are you planing to use the drive system for a BBC with the idler pulley hinged off the drive snout or SBC with the idler on a bolt on bracket?
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:59 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I have both styles of idler brackets, but for my project the connecting rod style that mounts directly to the snout works better for me.

I was able to port out the rpt to work on my 345 heads, Mike designed it that way, but it is vary tall. On a car without a hood the rpt-spacer-6-71 combo would look kind of like a mailbox.

Have you figured out what pitch of belt you are going to run yet?
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:28 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Not yet I will be back into this project as soon as the hand controlled scout moves on a little. The days are short and cold so I tend to get shop work done at a good pace in the winter
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:54 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Seems like I never have anything to do and winter in Montana is coming on. So the engine is paid for and should be back in Billings soon
...except the machine shop called with an issue trying to balance the flex plate. Off 700 grams or some such - no weights on the flex plate, which probably means it's either flat out wrong, or a 4cyl flexplate.

In any case, I'll dig up one from my collection and get it to 'em so we can get this project moving forward again.

Still waiting to hear if the first head I dropped off was the cracked one. It hasn't been magnafluxed yet.

Christmas is coming soon..
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:30 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Exclamation Overdrive blower,

Hey dump truck,
What is your thaught on a second key way on that pully? With a 6-71 overdriven I would think that it would be cheep insurance?
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:31 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Been asleep at the wheel on this one so a few updates, I have the floors done. Got the head lights I want to use. I got the tail lights I want, they are kinda hidden. I have what I think will be cool wheels, and the radiator is a fitted up. I also have the brake peddle set up so I an looking forward to getting this back in my shop. Pictures for your consideration
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:42 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Radiator after it is trimmed and fit for the cowl. These are the wheels I think will be sick after they are powder coated red and a nice IH center cap. And lastly the master cylinder.
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:46 PM   #125 (permalink)
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That looks like a fun build. I wanted to do something like that with an old pete cab and a CAT motor.
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