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Old 03-14-2010, 11:16 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Sounds like a success story. More importantly is you got to wheel and I didn't.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:51 PM   #177 (permalink)
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Sounds like a success story. More importantly is you got to wheel and I didn't.
Oh everybody didn't wheel this weekend?


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Light weight
So how much is yours?



I stuck a rod end that I had on an old tie rod in inventory and I wanted to see if this is going in the right direction.



This takes the roll in the tie rod from close to 90 to maybe 15 and it made a ton of difference on those long corners. While it's no sports car, it doesn't feel like bumper cars anymore .

This rod end is of unknown origin, so as soon as my order from Ruff Stuff comes in next week, I will replace this one and the other TRE with a direct mount like this, and the drag link to tie rod will be a rod end with misalignment spacers.

I picked up the slotted nuts so I can drill the Grade 8 bolt are run a cotter key. I also picked up a couple of nuts with the nylock ring, and could try those. Any input?
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:14 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Buck do not use the Nylock nuts for your steering, the nylon can get hot and fail or any number of reasons to fail. The reason they use castaled nuts is for a positive lock that will not fail.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:24 AM   #179 (permalink)
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"Grade-C Lock nuts" are nuts with crimped ends to create a nylock-effect without the use of nylon. I use them all the time.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:58 AM   #180 (permalink)
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"Grade-C Lock nuts" are nuts with crimped ends to create a nylock-effect without the use of nylon. I use them all the time.
These are like the ones we use on the output shafts, one shot only?
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:08 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Not that I'm aware of. I mean, if they are used alot, then they wear out ~ but I have yet to see it.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:31 PM   #182 (permalink)
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We use the nylocks all the time and never had a problem.

Add image

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Old 03-15-2010, 12:39 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Jetfxr was just pointing out there is a reason way they have allways use a cotter key for steering applications.
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:22 PM   #184 (permalink)
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We use the nylocks all the time and never had a problem.

That don't make it right! Folks use rod ends with out safety or retaining washers, if you use grade C locking nuts they should be only used once or torque tested before reuse. Just saying casalated nuts are used because they are safe period. This is not rocket science but it is your life, or someone else's. Rod ends without a safety washer can fail and drop off what ever they are attached to. I do prefer tierod ends on steering because they can be greased and this keeps them from wearing early. I have also found they do not clank and pop as much as Himes joints.
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:40 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Well, since I currently have both casalated and nylock in my hands, I think I willing to see how easy is is to drill grade 8 bolts and use cotter keys.

So far, I am very happy in the improvement in the steering using this old rod end I had laying around. I have no idea what is is made from or how many miles are on it, but I do know the concept is good. I'll be getting my brand spankin' new heat treated chromos this week an I'll have a high degree of confidence in known product.

The limited rotation yet full motion I'm getting from the rod end over the TRE is just a big improvement.
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:41 PM   #186 (permalink)
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We use the nylocks all the time and never had a problem.

That don't make it right!
I take it the first line is a quote correct Robert?
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:39 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Yep, Buck there is a ton of great info here just take it all with a grain of salt. Remember you will be blasting down public roads as well as the trails. Look at all your steering links as well as axle links, I don't mean to be an ass but a broken link can turn a fun outing into a tragic experience. 99% of the time you can just get stopped and out of harms way, there is that 1% that could happen.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:42 AM   #188 (permalink)
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I've already drilled out the knuckles and have flip certs installed.




I'll need to see if I have room for both links above the knuckle like in this pic. I wouldn't mind having the tie rod under the knuckle and the drag link over the knuckle. I just can't believe I'm wanting a knuckle sandwich.

I really don't think I need to have the tie rod in the highest possible position to avoid damage, it is already far better than it was. I would rather not end up with the stack in the pic, and just use misalignment spacers on the drag link rod end, no spacers for the tie rod and then a big ass bolt with a custom hole for a castellated nut and cotter pin.
I saw a guy with that same stacked rod-end set up on his daughters white Scout on the Rubicon around 1999. He was bragging that he "invented" the design and that it saved him $1000 versus highsteer. I can't remember where on the trail this was other than it was pretty far in, but before big sluice. Anyway it wasn't 10 minutes later and I saw them welding from a distance. I went over and of course the knuckle arm had snapped from the leverage. This was a typical mildly built Scout with as I recall 33's, but they could have been 35's. No hydro assist or anything like that.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:39 AM   #189 (permalink)
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"Grade-C Lock nuts" are nuts with crimped ends to create a nylock-effect without the use of nylon. I use them all the time.
I've always referred to those as "top locks"

I don't know how hard it is to drill out a Grade 8 bolt for a cotter key, but I can tell you that I've tried re-drilling a TRE to take a cotter key and I failed.

I put a '73 Buick pitman arm on my Scout II box with my high steer, to keep the draglink from getting pinched by the leaf spring at full bump.

This raised the steering box end of the draglink, but the TRE stuck up and hit the frame.

At first, I ground the excess shank.

Then I ground some more.

Then some more.

Pretty soon, the cotter key hole was gone, but I eventually got to where it would all clear - without any safety key.

I applied some Red Loctite.. but it wasn't much longer before my nerves got the better of me and I bought a new TRE, then notched and plated the frame to make room for the full length TRE with cotter pin.

This, on a Scout that only sees action on a closed course, with full safety gear.

I was just too nervous about it.

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Old 03-16-2010, 08:59 AM   #190 (permalink)
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Man, you guys are taking all the fun out of seat-o-the pants ingunerring and Booty fabbing!!!



I'm going with the cotter key method on the rod end. The TRE is absolutely not safe in the current set up with the rotation.

I think the best solution is put this brand new high quality rod end into use and secure it as good as possible (cotter key) and keep an eye on it.

As Mark Twain said...

"Put your eggs in one basket,

and watch that basket very carefully."
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:33 AM   #191 (permalink)
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Pretty soon, the cotter key hole was gone, but I eventually got to where it would all clear - without any safety key.

I applied some Red Loctite.. but it wasn't much longer before my nerves got the better of me and I bought a new TRE, then notched and plated the frame to make room for the full length TRE with cotter pin.
Sounds like safety wire may have been the trick here?
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:46 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Sounds like safety wire may have been the trick here?
.02c
That's a skill I hope to have JetFxr demonstrate when I'm over in Billings next time.

I think the new racer needs an abundance of safety wire.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:21 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I wanted to include some highlights of some PMs I've had with Chris from FOA shocks.

I know everyone on Pirate knows how to set up coilovers, except me, so please forgive me for telling you all the stuff that you already know,

He started off by offering to revalve the shock at no charge if I send them back to him. Pretty good customer services, since he contacted me.

I gave him some on the basics including a picture of the preload .

"I ran this thing over the scales and came up with 5,300 lbs, 2,900# front, 2,400 rear. about 500# more than I originally thought. I am running 35's at 90# per side and a Dana 44 at 150#-175#. I have 14" 350# primary and 10" 225# secondary springs. Your spring rate calculator stiffens this up, and I would be ok with keeping the 350# and going to 250# or 275# for the secondaries and eliminate some of the preload I have.

The lifting I am getting is when I am stopped in 2WD with a foot on the brake and give it some throttle, the front will lift up to 5" - 6". In 4WD, the whole rig lifts maybe 1", and on hill climbs in 4WD, it feels fine.

Cornering seems stable and ride feel good."




And he said...

"It doesn't look as though you have alot of preload now, but you will have less for sure with the firmer springs.
You may be able to get away with just less bleed on the shocks. That could be accomplished with a longer piston wear band. If you are capable of pulling the shock apart, it would be a 5 minute job once the shaft is out.
Let me know...or like I said, we can take care of it for you."

So I said...

"So do you think stiffer springs will help or hurt? Do you think the lifting is indicating the rebound valving is too light? and finally what is less bleed?

I would be more willing to go after the valving with the correct shims in hand, and a picture of the shock parts( and a clue what good shock preformance is is I saw it. )

And he said...

"I wouldn't mess with the springs if the ride height is good.
We use a short wear band on the rockcrawler pistons...think of it like a regular piston ring. It goes around the outside of the piston and keeps it off the cylinder wall.
If it's replaced with a longer one that is cut to fit all the way around, it will force more oil thru the shims....make the movement slower. I don't think you'll need to mess with the shims at all."

So I said...

"It sounds like the change is less involved than revalving. I take it I would get the wear band from you. I think I could follow good instructions, so I'd rather take a crack at it than send them back.

I do like the ride height an I'd rather not buy new springs if I don't have to. As far as I know, the lifting is the only problem I have."


So he said...

"Give me your address and I'll send a couple wear bands out.
Once you've done this..it's the same basic process to do a shim change, so you'll get to see inside and such. Follow these basic instructions.... http://f-o-a.com/revalvinginstructions.html
You'll only get to the point of removing the shaft....then the wear band will be taken off and replaced with the new one. The new one needs to be cut to where it goes completely around the piston and touches itself, or close to it. Try not to leave a gap."


With that, we're all experts in coilovers...

Thanks again to Chris, FOA gets my vote for customer service.


.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:00 AM   #194 (permalink)
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Just to recap - the issue is that your rear 4-link induces squat, planting the tail when you launch, causing the nose to rise.

This is compounded now by the "fee falling" coil springs (the old leaf springs had internal resistance that slowed the drop, limited travel, and whatever crusty old shocks you had before).

In 4wd, you don't notice it as much because the front is pulling and counteracts some of that squat.

Aside from changing your rear link design, adding more rebound to the shocks (or, as you're doing, just adding more in general) would help somewhat, by slowing the rate at which the front shocks will unload, causing the lift in the front of the frame (that the rear suspension is inducing) to work against the weight of the front axle a little harder which will slow it down and/or reduce the effect.

It would also mean while charging over the whoops, you might carry the front axle more instead of letting it drop down into every trough. (OTOH, go too far and it starts to stack up and the axle never comes down and the ride begins to get VERY rough from sitting at the bump stops the whole time)

That sound about right?

Tearing into a shock is scary the first time, but then ho-hum. You'll need to find a motorcycle shop to get the shocks recharged.

Oh - one of the advantages of your current setup - when you come to a speed bump, hammer the gas - you'll float over it.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:33 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Just to recap - the issue is that your rear 4-link induces squat, planting the tail when you launch, causing the nose to rise.

This is compounded now by the "fee falling" coil springs (the old leaf springs had internal resistance that slowed the drop, limited travel, and whatever crusty old shocks you had before).

In 4wd, you don't notice it as much because the front is pulling and counteracts some of that squat.

Aside from changing your rear link design, adding more rebound to the shocks (or, as you're doing, just adding more in general) would help somewhat, by slowing the rate at which the front shocks will unload, causing the lift in the front of the frame (that the rear suspension is inducing) to work against the weight of the front axle a little harder which will slow it down and/or reduce the effect.

It would also mean while charging over the whoops, you might carry the front axle more instead of letting it drop down into every trough. (OTOH, go too far and it starts to stack up and the axle never comes down and the ride begins to get VERY rough from sitting at the bump stops the whole time)

That sound about right?

Tearing into a shock is scary the first time, but then ho-hum. You'll need to find a motorcycle shop to get the shocks recharged.

Oh - one of the advantages of your current setup - when you come to a speed bump, hammer the gas - you'll float over it.
This rear frame end upper link mount has the three adjustable positions. I'm currently in the middle position.



Running the 4-link calculator, each hole changes the anti squat number by about 20%. IIRC, I started the rear in the top hole which has about 100% AS. It also had, what I felt was a bunch of rear steer. I moved it down one hole and lowered the AS to 80% and have a much "freeer" feeling. The rear end has been very stable off camber, which is actuially one of my highest priorities.

First thing is to drive the piss out of this thing and try and identify what I like and don't like before tweeking and buying replacement parts. I took it out on the road last night and the rod end in the steering linkage is 100% improvement.

I'll be doing the wear band on the shocks when I get them, and see what the effect is on the 2wd lifting. When I have the shocks off, I'm going to adjust the lower links on the front a smidge to center the shocks in the tower.

Then drive the shit out of it...

Then I'll look at the rear AS adjustments and I would think a lower rear AS would decease the lift in he front, however these matters give me the brain cramps.

I'm also thinking if I don't need to respring the front shocks like Chris thinks, I might get some 16" for the rear...

Then drive the shit out of it...
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:55 PM   #196 (permalink)
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First thing is to drive the piss out of this thing
Amen!

Quote:
I'll be doing the wear band on the shocks when I get them, and see what the effect is on the 2wd lifting. When I have the shocks off, I'm going to adjust the lower links on the front a smidge to center the shocks in the tower.
Do keep in mind the ENTIRE travel arc of the front axle. When I setup my 7100s (non-coilover, but heimed ends) I had to think about it for a bit, and have it setup so they are NOT vertical or centered at ride height, because as the suspension traveled, the shock angle (fore/aft) shifted - and when originally mounted as vertical, it would exceed the angle on the heim joints at various spots of the suspension travel, which means bent and broken shock shafts (BTDT).

Quote:
Then I'll look at the rear AS adjustments and I would think a lower rear AS would decease the lift in he front, however these matters give me the brain cramps.
Nod.

Thanks for reminding me again of how much fun I'm going to have re-valving shocks and adjusting the suspension again and again and again.. (as soon as I get that project into the shop)
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:54 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Do keep in mind the ENTIRE travel arc of the front axle. When I setup my 7100s (non-coilover, but heimed ends) I had to think about it for a bit, and have it setup so they are NOT vertical or centered at ride height, because as the suspension traveled, the shock angle (fore/aft) shifted - and when originally mounted as vertical, it would exceed the angle on the heim joints at various spots of the suspension travel, which means bent and broken shock shafts (BTDT).
I ordered these shocks with 1-1/4" mounting, I would go 1-1/2" next time. The difference is these cute little missalignment spacers.
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:51 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Here's how I did my steering linkages.

I still had a TRE on the pitman arm, and my new 3/4" heat treated Chromo rod ends from Ruff Stuff.





I used a spacer over the rod ends on the tie rod to restrict the rolling motion.




This spacer allows the rod end to spin, but not roll. I think this is the only motion I need from the tie rod. It seems to work very well on the street. I don't think it will make any difference off road as the tie rod and knuckles only go back and forth.

Here is the drag link to tie rod joint. This needs more movement, and I used the misallignment spacers




Next, I plan to see how easy is is to drill my grade 8 bolys for cotter keys. Somehow, I and anticipating problems...


Hopefully, I will be using the correct tools for the job and will not repeat this...

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Old 03-27-2010, 11:11 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Here is the drag link to tie rod joint. This needs more movement, and I used the misallignment spacers



[/IMG]
Maybe it's just the picture but it looks like there's too much leverage on the bolt to me.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:30 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Maybe it's just the picture but it looks like there's too much leverage on the bolt to me.
Why not 'capture' the heim in a tab?
Not to start a single -vs- double sheer argument, however double sheer in steering components just makes me feel better.
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