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Old 05-31-2010, 12:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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GW Backwards re-Build...v1.7

The rig complete as of 8-15-13. Im sure more changes will come eventually.



3 years ago I ran 38 SX's on a 44/8.8 combo. And it failed misserably. 38's have no place on a 44 for a serious wheeler. I broke countless stubs, joints, a few inners, snapped a pinion, and finally had enough after I bent and twisted the housing. So I tore GW apart for 1 tons and a real build. Now, for those looking for insipartion here let me make one VERY strong recomendation. Build in moderation. At the time, I was finacially stable and well prepaired for the build. 2 months later, life shit on my face. Had I known things would have gone they way they have, my build would have gone dramaticlly diffrent. But thats life I suppose.

Fast forward 2 years and life is begining to piece itself together again and progess is finally being made.

GreatWhiteXJ Specs when completed: Edited 9-14-11 for new plans.

02' SuperDuty Balljoint 60 front w/ 4.56, Spartan locker, 4340 chromo 35s pline inners and outters, custom truss and Chromo joints. Converted to 8x6.5 and 35 spline stubs via Branik unit bearing hubs.

Typical 14 bolt rear w/ 4.56, Mini spool and disc convo

231/300 Colorado CrawlBox doubler ( My own personal design)

4-Link Double Tri Rear Suspension on stock XJ coils (Its not certain what coils will be used in the end. But the XJ coils are a good start.)

3-Link w/panhard Front Suspension with 8.5" Crusty's coils

111" WB

Hi-Steer that will include machining factory knuckles and w/ Surplus assist

Frame plated in SERIOUS overkill material (1/4 angle, 3/16 box, 3/16 plate and some 1/8)

Chopped

Full Exo and partial interior cage

Motor to remain 4.0 for now (4.6 stroker future) and tranny only modified for 1 and 2 gear shift point mods.
Lots of other cool shit I'll cover as I go....

So about 2 months ago I made a shitass attempt at a trial run. No lights at all, nothing near complete. I slapped a seat in it, fabbed some shit driveshafts and use a bone stock 231. In the snow, on rock with bald 40's no assist, no front locker....Im sure you can imagine how it went. However its intent was to read my suspensions and acctually apply somethings Ive learned to my rig. (Plus I wanted to drive my own rig for once). Immediatly I noticed several things and with the rig not near completion I was ok with redoing things. So we will start there. (Hint the thread title v 1.7)

The first to go was a shit 4-link and lot of rear work to re-do. Pictured below was attempt one. Fail. 50" long lowers, hanging and grabbing on crap, and I managed to bend a lower in a lame ass 8 hours. Truss and fab work were boarderline ghetto fab/ hack job thread worthy. The picture says enough.



That truss is soo fucking lame, I cant beleive I built that. Shocks arent on in this pic, but they too needed attention. Terrible angles.

Here's when I started to redo things. Note sheet metal missing. Also note, this thing is going to look like crap for a while. Main reason is because it sits outside. And I don't need anyone thinking they need something off it more than I do. I assure you when its 100% done....it'll look GREAT!!!



So then the torch came out. I cut off alot. Inner fenders went away, bumper got redone, entire 4 link change with new truss and crossmember, shock change, some tube re-work, new tailight panels I never fineshed...etc.

So this is were I am now. Finishing up all above. Bumper is done, light panels done, fenders done, 4 -link done, shock hoops and locations new, new truss, new heims, new links, new coil mounts, re designed rear frame plate work...etc.

This is the new truss and pinion skid.... It is NOT BTF's but a damn near identical homebrew rip off. Made of 3/8's and 1/4...



New coils mounts again homebrew.... The 2 bolts in the back are for retaining clips. Yes, 2 per coil.



Coil towers changed. Uptravel was too much, down travel too little. So I made these. .120 wall with a bump from a 94' Plymouth Grand Voyager Mini Van. (rears) These impressed the hell outta me. For a junkyard find I think it would be hard to top these.... The bump itself is exactly 4" long and the towers about 8 1/4". Bump is polyfoam as far as I can tell. Tower is welded to a piece of 1/8 to allow for better surface weld and because they outboarded a tit from previous.


Next was bumper redo---Couple helpful skid angles, new recovery points. Made from 3x3 3/16 box and 3/16 plate.


Then the 4-link was redone. Links and joints were redone. Truss redone, crossmember, frame end uppers...all of it. Upper links are 3/4's QA1 heims on both ends with 1.5" .250 wall DOM. Lowers are Curries JJ's at the axle and polys at the frame in TRIPPLE sleaved DOM. 2" .120, 1.75" .120, 1.5" .120. And for those paying attention, there are no jamb nuts on the lowers right now and everthing is just finger tight.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:33 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Crossmember


New upper link mounts. Again homebrew. Made with 3x3, 3/16 angle and another piece of 3/16. 4 holes for AS adjustability. 67%-111% Also, the pic show the mount complete, but inside the "boxed" portion is 8....yes 8, 1/8" gussets and then boxed in with 3/16. That shit wont break.


Upper links got mounted axle side next... with some fancey home gusset work. Tabs are 3/16's, gussets are 1/8th.



Then it all went in. Sorry this is the best pic I have right now.


Then we moved on to fender re-do and shock remounting. The shocks are NOT in yet. I need to flex the rig out with full weight. The way I have it now, Im about 90% sure the tire will hit the shock tube. So, I'll what til I can full flex before I hard mount the shocks and fill in the hole you see. (Shocks not shown but they are budget shitter Pro Comp ES9000 Shocks. Part number 369000x. 15.62" of travel.)
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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For those up late....DONT reply quite yet. Still more coming.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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More rear shots.... Also note rear brake/light panel changes, obvioiusly brake lights mounted. The red will be brakes, turn, and driving lights. Below and set at an angle, will be reverse.



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Old 05-31-2010, 01:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Then I guess we can cover some cage and overall shots....

Cage is for the most part complete including the interior pieces. They wont be installed still tranny tunnel and final drivetrain is fitted. Just easier to work and some pieces will be connected. But here is the exo from several angles.

Im extremly happy with the tight fitment. In some places you cant even get a piece of paper underneath. The cowel piece was easilly the hardest fit. It has 6 total bends. Fits like.....100% perfect. So tight I had to modify the wipers. The b-pillar bars are so tight that the rear doors only open about 12". However I have a plan for those. Whether it works or not will come later. However they only stick around for practical usage. Like tempature control for winter wheelin. But Id say 90% of the time they will be off or will have tube doors. There is also more tube to come. 2 pieces need added to the rear....several to the front including winch mount and fenders and a bit to conecting the exo to the interior. What you see is 126' 9" of tube. And actually if I broke it down, its 50% of 1.75" .120 DOM, 30% Hrew and 20-% pipe. Finished should be around 155' total. The entire cage will connect to the frame in over 20 places. The sliders/rock rail are made of 1/4 2x6 box, and replace the entire factory rail. And approx 2" is cut of the bottom of the doors as well.







And I suppose that'll do it for now. Minus some tweaking and tube the rear is re-built and done. I'll fit the tranny tunnel, finish shocks, fit new driveshaft, reinstall brakes, finishe weldin gas tank skid, flip it around, and move on. 3 link is not pictured nor will be till rebuild. It wont change much, but still some and I dont care to show off a broken axle end 3 link mount. 7" of sep is NOT enough. Should have and actaully did know but missed and made a mistake somewhere. It gets new work too. I'lll cover things as I get there. And I will update as redone.

Also note that my camera is no longer. I had a Kodak C340 Zoom but after it refused to take pictures with BRAND new batteries it seems the 2b sledge has accidently fallen on it about 10 times. But a new one is in the works and friends are helping in the mean time. I will update as I progress.

And again, 8 hours trial time is shit. Yes I redid stuff. For the better. But look to those wheeling there OWN big rigs rather than me wheeling friends rigs on 35-36's.... I'd consider myself more advanced than most but Im no Ash, Tim, Chris, Andy or Brass. Ive got good ideas, fab and production....but little foot time with a rig worth a fuck. Call me webby if you will...I dont care. Follow those making more progress than me.

Dont expect frequent updates either. GreatWhite gets love only when finacially avail. Not everyday do I roll out the welders.

Gas tanks skid got fitted and tacked today... no pics thou. Reverse Lights and more rear sheet metal fitment begins with next payday.
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Im drinking JD as I posted all this so deal with the typos's. I'll clean em up later.

Fire away with questions and constructive crit. I talk as much shiat as all of em. Call me out. You dont like it or see something you think is wrong or needs attention....let me here what ya got.


And......it has to be said....

BACON!
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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finally.
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Right?! Really thou... This really is a mega, ultra, serioulsy slow build. My rig is my life...in my heart. But my rig is NOT my life.....in life. In a nut shell thats the best I can put it.


To finish this Im honestly not too far away. But finacially a mile. Honeslty in raw work Id say another 80 hours fabn time. And I have most of the material. But finacially...4 grand plus to go.

I need.....
Doubler kit....(already have d300) $499 (and shifting)
Rubber...Likley 42" Iroks since 40" Ltbs are gone for now and 39.5 Iroks are crap dick and a half... $2200 max (undecided)
Beadlocks and 2 wheels....$600 MaX (DIY4x.com Single rippers prolly)
Assist and hi-steer. $750
Branik UBH's and ECGS Flanges. $700
Refab and new steel. (wire, arbraisives, gas etc...)
Winch....undecided.
Seats..,harnesses', limit straps or suck downs, front shocks, front brakes, steer mateial, 4 heims, overhaul brakes...I could contiue but.....


2 am....dont wanna think out the rest. When I said budget it was no joke. Heres an example....Cause Im out of wire. This months allowance goes that direction first. I usually weld .045 flux outside. so $45 a roll. Ouch and seriously lame. But I deal with it.
So needless to say $20 on a solid roll, 50 on flux....pretty big mothly setback.
(And yea, flux. Its fine. Pain to clean up, but fine. Yes, gas insde. Ironman welders and an ol' skool lincoln arc.)

Request the updates.....it'lll definaty keep me motivated. Like I said I do have most of the material. But I cant always. It goes as life lets it. Thats the way it is.
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Like the gussets on the cage.
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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i paid 1300 for my iroks.... i got um from 4wheelonline i think, it was a while ago.. but they were havin some kinda buy 3 get 1 free deal..

and do i see a sunroof??
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:40 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Damn right I gotta sunroof. Love that thing.

Thanks Had. Most of that gusseting will have a few changes but only cosmetic. And there will be some more gussets (tube) added to the front and winshield area along with however I wrap up the front.

Also, the rig is shortened about 6" total. Some of the side rig shots make it look kinda stoopid but that may have been that stellar camera I was using.
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Old 05-31-2010, 05:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I totally feel you on the slow build. It took me 3 years to build my 1 ton wrangler that I have already got rid of recently. I put way too much in to that damn thing! I had the same kind of budget as you but i managed to get it done with patience. Only problem is after I got done I got bored with it and traded it lol. Oh well---------------Kyle
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
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So who can tickle my facny here....

What your looking at is 7 3/8" of seperation at the axle. Is that enough? What comes into play here that Im missing? 25% rule? 8" Seperation rule? Why?

Go.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Fuckin' wheel it. The 25% rule is for the most part, internet bullshit.

What you'll be more unhappy about is how inboard & short your springs are.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Fuckin' wheel it. The 25% rule is for the most part, internet bullshit.

What you'll be more unhappy about is how inboard & short your springs are.
Thought so.

For what its worth, thats exactly how your coils were setup. Center to center of the coils is 37". Almost directly under the frame rails. They are outboarded a tit. And those red springs are Stocker XJ coils. Correct me if Im wrong, but you never had any terrible feedback on yours.

Edit: Did some re-measuring.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:09 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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And those red springs are Stocker XJ coils. Correct me if Im wrong, but you never had any terrible feedback on yours.
Haven't read my thread lately, have ya?

With the coilovers I've gone 10% softer on the initial rate and removed the sway bar, and the handling is much better.

The spring rate in pure vertical travel isn't bad. The ability of the springs to resist body roll and flex is horrible. What I perceived as the springs being 'too soft' was in reality the sprung weight CoG having too large a moment over the springs, limiting their ability to do anything but resist straight uptravel. Initial frequency in uptravel was actually a bit higher than I thought, so I dropped the rate slightly and increased the compression valving to keep it about the 'same'. So far, so good.

Just visually compare the coil springs under the frame rails to where my shock mounts are now...



...then you may realize how spring rate is still important, but where it's applied is a completely different issue.

The swaybar made it 'work' but wasn't nearly as effective. I feel like I'm driving an entirely different rig now - in a better sense.

After that experience I'll never recommend to anyone doing a coil-sprung 4-link in the rear of an XJ to put their springs under the frame rail. You've already got it all chopped apart; french in some coil buckets outward & upward and you'll be much happier in the end.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:28 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well put and much appreciated. I'll look into spring changes. It royally fucks my shock mount work but I suppose since an airshock or coilover is not anticipated anytime soon, its more than worth redoing if possible.

However, then mounting shocks will become a pain. It would leave me with almost no choice but inboard the shocks and set them at a stoopid angle in order to avoid frame contact. Something Im not to keen on, especially since I just bought shocks.

And I know your arguments are strongly coming from coilovers. But at the same time it would be hard for anyone to ignore your previous results. Sure, it seems very apprent now that its not the ideal setup, but it did well and you cant say that it didn't. After seeing you wheel it on coils for what, 3 years?, it's difficult to dispose of everything you've said and done with it in the past. Like said before, not ideal....but it did work, and resonably well at that.

Im gonna head out an look though. If I can make it work, I will. If not, oh well. I'll get a Currie bandaid and do what I can.
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:06 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone ever run coil springs at an angle? You could angle the upper and lower mounts so that the springs are almost parallel with the shocks (in their current location). Move the lower coil mounts out and angle them back towards the frame.

I guess they might bow out when just sitting still or bouncing straight up and down, unless you could figure out some sort of short 'guide' system that the springs wouldn't bind on and wouldn't hit the axle when flexed.

Too much work?
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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dang. i missed this somehow.


i like the cage work on the roof that keeps the sunroof usable
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:07 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Well put and much appreciated. I'll look into spring changes. It royally fucks my shock mount work but I suppose since an airshock or coilover is not anticipated anytime soon, its more than worth redoing if possible.

However, then mounting shocks will become a pain. It would leave me with almost no choice but inboard the shocks and set them at a stoopid angle in order to avoid frame contact. Something Im not to keen on, especially since I just bought shocks.
I outboarded my springs and just like you said GW, shock location got stupid. I didn't have much of a choice than to angle the crap out of them. Not that big of a deal as air shocks and a backhalf job are coming next winter.
I'll try and get some pictures how I have my shocks mounted. They're actually at much less of an angle than my last setup, which worked just fine for crawling-but that was also with leaves. . .
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:23 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone ever run coil springs at an angle? You could angle the upper and lower mounts so that the springs are almost parallel with the shocks (in their current location). Move the lower coil mounts out and angle them back towards the frame.

I guess they might bow out when just sitting still or bouncing straight up and down, unless you could figure out some sort of short 'guide' system that the springs wouldn't bind on and wouldn't hit the axle when flexed.

Too much work?
This is my build thread. Not an open forum for coil questions. Ask your stoopid ass question somewhere else.

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dang. i missed this somehow.


i like the cage work on the roof that keeps the sunroof usable
Thanks. Im quite enjoy that part of my rig and wanted to keep it functional. Im sure there are better ways I could have done it, but it should be fine and I like the way it came out.

For those lerking, yes Iv'e got a few updates but I need someone who's got a digi that a 2lb sledge has accidently fallen on. Nothin big, just a gas tank skid and tank mount and some reverse lights. Maybe by update time I'll have the shocks mounted and some few more pieces of tube as well. Im still trying to work up something with shock mounts. Looks as of right now, I'll leave the hoops open. Everything Ive thrown at it so far looks fucking retarted. I filled in the passenger side and it looks stoopid. From the design aspect I mean. So I'll either completly ignore or pay 100% attention to them today.

As for coils and outboarding. It's just not gonna happen. I was up til about 2 last night and outboarding the coils even 1" means certain shock contact on the coil and mount. So then I looked into new shock locations. And yeah that didnt please me either. As I thought, they would absolutly have to go inboard and set at a minimum of 65*. And I would also need another pair of shocks. If I move the axle end mounts forwards on the tube, it could be a possibility. But Im not gonna cut all that off again on a hunch that it could work.

Chris I appreciate your feedback, but outboarding the coils just isn't gonna happen. I see and understand the reasoning and appreciate you bringing that to my attention but it just wont happen. And honestly I'll go ahead and say its because of your own previous comments. I read into a few of your threads last night and you've made several comments of how you thought your setup worked well. Especially in your "My link setup: design -> results " thread. Its just too hard for me to ignore not only other people's comments, but your own.

Plus, I honestly think I would like to experience what you have and have a better understanding of it all. And as much as you or anyone else may argue, our wheeling types are significantly diffrent and the speed thing will never happen. We've got slooooow, tight rocky trails in my area, and though I do intend to travel with my rig, I have to remember that 90% of what I'll ever do will be in my turf. So, Im going to settle with it as of now. Its early, morning and Im off so Ill look into a bit more but I doubt I'll change my mind.
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:48 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by whitneyj View Post
I outboarded my springs and just like you said GW, shock location got stupid. I didn't have much of a choice than to angle the crap out of them. Not that big of a deal as air shocks and a backhalf job are coming next winter.
I'll try and get some pictures how I have my shocks mounted. They're actually at much less of an angle than my last setup, which worked just fine for crawling-but that was also with leaves. . .

Yea, thats what I thought. I'm sure Ill get the tape out and recheck several time but I know outboarding them means a significant sacrifice in shock mounting. We'll see...
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:29 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm glad you finally got around to posting up a build thread, Matt!

It looks great. I look forward to seeing the end result.
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWhiteXJ View Post
This is my build thread. Not an open forum for coil questions. Ask your stoopid ass question somewhere else.
I was making a suggestion for YOU, jackass. You said you didn't want to have to widen the springs and relocate the shocks. Damn, have a beer or something.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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There is a reason my build isn't posted on here I got you beat on slowness. Keep it up man
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