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Old 07-08-2019, 10:22 PM   #251 (permalink)
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Oh man thanks for the link I was hoping I wouldn’t have to turn a spacer down to minute my steering. Awesome job.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:21 AM   #252 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGERROD View Post
Oh man thanks for the link I was hoping I wouldn’t have to turn a spacer down to minute my steering. Awesome job.
I'm glad it was helpful.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:18 AM   #253 (permalink)
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Now that the steering is entirely mocked up and everything is in it's proper place, I finalized the brackets and cleaned things up. The final welding will happen when I pull the axle after the coilovers are mocked up.





I cut the pitman arm down to size:



I remade the frame side trackbar mount so there'd be less gap between the bracket and the frame:



To strengthen up the track bar and drag link DOM tube linkages, I inner sleeved them with 1" OD 6061-T6 solid round bar. These don't see the abuse that the tie rod sees and are also shorter so the weight and cost savings are welcome over the heat treated 4140 I had used in that.

On the steering arms I used 1" OD .120" wall tubing cut to length as spacers over the grade 8 3/4"-16 by 8in length bolts. 3/4" washers and mechanically locking grade C/8 stover nuts. Blue Loctite to prevent rust and further retain the steering. The 3/4" bolt is torqued to 200ft-lb.



One question I received is how I figured out my maximum turning radius or if I could add more with the RCV shafts. The answer is that Currie set the knuckle steering stops for me. Any more angle and the inner-C wants to take out the upper steering arm bolts.

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Old 07-09-2019, 09:25 AM   #254 (permalink)
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Aside from running the steering fluid hoses (will happen around the time the fenders go in), installing the reservoir, 6lb pressure valve to keep it from spitting, and tweaking the alignment once it's driving, this finishes up the steering chapter of my build. If you're just tuning in now, the steering is spread over posts dating back to some of my first posts in this build thread. Here's an index:
  1. Axle overview: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post43498642
  2. Drilling the upper steering arm: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post43704433
  3. The steering parts list: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44216016
  4. Fitting steering stuff in: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44216052
  5. Steering game plan: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44221636
  6. Flat pitman arm: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44223048
  7. Rough tierod mockup: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44225878
  8. Steering plate mockup and rough mockup of all the links: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44234760
  9. Tierod heim spacers: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44235772
  10. Firming up and committing to the placement: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44385558
  11. Aligning the axle: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44387512
  12. Finishing up the tirerod: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44477192
  13. Finishing up the pitman arm: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44477326
  14. Steering arm plate: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44482140
  15. Mounting hydro assist: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44482170
  16. Destroking hydro assist: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44513118
  17. Finishing up the steering: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...l#post44513590

Feel free to keep steering discussion going. I've enjoyed the comments/questions/ideas/suggestions.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:35 PM   #255 (permalink)
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Back in March I had dropped off the roll cage padding covers to be modified at the seamstress. She did a great job of it. Looking back, I would have marked how to cut around the bars slightly different and reversed the direction of the zipper above the driver's head (not her fault since I did all of the measuring) but I'm still very happy with the results. However, if somebody has some take off LJ covers I'd buy them off you and I'd have another go at this.



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Old 07-10-2019, 08:41 AM   #256 (permalink)
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To finish up my windshield repair, the windshield company replaced the glass. It didn't come with new interior trim so I'm glad I hung onto that piece.

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Old 07-12-2019, 10:31 AM   #257 (permalink)
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I had to do a few other errands down in the big city so I decided to try out another tire shop for balancing and I ended up finding the best tech ever who had no issues with the set of 35s and 37s showing up or being on beadlocks.

This is a 37" Goodyear MT/R on TrailReady beadlocks balanced out to 0.00oz on Roadforce:



The other set of 35s (for my wife's Jeep) was done by another guy at the same shop. He did an acceptable job with them but in the future I will be requesting that the guy who did the 37s personally balance my tires. I still need to take them for a spin but as long as they drive good I'd say it's well worth the 6 hour round trip drive to get them done right!



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Old 07-12-2019, 02:08 PM   #258 (permalink)
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I've learned a lot since I put in the rear coilovers and I think I have come up with a method for mocking up the perfect placement for the hoops and it requires very little effort comparatively. This is the culmination of my experiences, the suggestions of others, and a few things I've seen. So I can't take full credit for it. I also agreed not to share some of the tips I received that really helped make the install way easier, if you're keen eyed you can probably spot these tricks in the pictures and learn.

To start, I measured the axle from the ground at ride height, next I moved the axle up to full bump and measured again. My limiting factor is the tie rod contacting the draglink TRE. My total available uptravel is 6.5". Next I took the collapsed length of my coilovers and added 6.5" to the number. I ended up with 31" as the length of my coilovers eye to eye at ride height.

I then took a piece of 1x1 and cut it 1" longer than my eye to eye length and drilled holes 31" apart so I could fit a 1.5" spacer in on each end (this is the width of my coilover eyes). I then bolted the mounting tabs on one end for the axle and the bracket on the other end for the hoop. This is my "mockup coilover".



If you've worked with coilovers before, you've probably realized as soon as you start placing the top bracket that there's really only one way to orientate the bracket onto the hoop so that the coilover body doesn't hit the bracket. Here's the magic recipe:

Take your hoops and lay them flat on the ground, put a length of ...REDACTED... The resulting location should be the ideal orientation. I went ahead and tacked the mounts in place.



One quick note here, I cheaped out when I bought the upper brackets since I was patching together what I had left from the rear hoops and I went with Artec's version. Artec either has no clue what they're doing or their mount isn't designed to work with Fox 2.5 coilovers... either way they don't fit around the eye and the design isn't nearly well functioning as the Genright mounts I replaced them with.


(Artec on the left, Genright on the right)

The next biggest hurtle that we're going to prep for is perfecting coping and notching the tubing around the frame. The front section of frame has a lot of things to notch around like the motor mounts, but this method will make messing up okay. I took 6' of ...REDACTED... not have to bend/buy new hoops.

Based on some testing at full flex, I know that I need to move the coilover inboard to keep it off the axle side track bar mount, and I need to keep the coilover as far outboard as I can to clear the frame. But by mounting the coilover angled too far out at the top it looks dorky and can start getting into the tire. My best bet is to lean the coilovers back at the top so the body is in the narrowest section of the frame. To achieve a happy medium I will possibly need to notch the frame to make it even narrower. I'm hoping I'll be able to fit in short airbumps but I might not have the room.

Now that I am prepped and have a general idea of my coilover placement, I put the axle back at ride height, closed the hood, took the "mockup coilover" and checked my clearances against the hood. I want my mounts to fit under the hood. Right off the bat I can tell that I need to move the coilovers down. The coilover itself clears, but the hoop will not.

I was able to shave 1/2" off the axle mounting tabs to get them closer to the axle but it's still not enough clearance if the hood is pushed down and I don't want them tapping as it catches wind going down the road. These 2.5x14" coilovers are just so long... I looked briefly at the 2.0s and I've riden in a similarly built Jeep with 2.0x12" with the new Fox DSCs and it rode great so it's an option if I have to. But I still think I can make these big boys fit.

My 2 options are to limit uptravel and I could lift the Jeep slightly more to gain it back, or to mount the coilover lower on the axle.
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:41 AM   #259 (permalink)
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I cut new tabs to mount the coilovers off the lower control arm mounts and bolted them to my mockup coilover. This postions the coilover with plenty of clearance off the hood.



Mounting the coilovers at an angle in of 87* seemed like a good place to start based on my earlier mockups. So I tacked the tabs onto the axle pointed with the bolt 90* from the axle, angled the mockup coilover 87* in, and placed the hoop legs on the frame. I then took out my secret weapon: the Pipemaster! I've been wanting one for a while now and I decided to splurge and see how well it works for notching the tubing around the motor mounts -- something that would be impossible to eyeball with any accuracy.

I traced the pattern from the pipemaster around each leg and cut them at the welding table with the angle grinder.





Going back to the hoop, I put the mock up coilover back at the desired angle. The notching turned out pretty good! I then tacked them into place.


(at full articulation the bottom eye of the coilover is about 1/2" away from it's mount)

Before repeating for the other side, I cycled the axle and learned a few things.

1) I will need to notch the frame by over half it's width. But first I want to repeat for the other side to make sure the mirrored position works fine.
2) Because the coilovers aren't mounted in a true 1:1 ratio with the axle movement and the axle tube rolls as it cycles, there is an extra 1/2" of travel left before they bottom out at full bump. To prevent the axle from smashing through the engine, I'm either going to need air bumps in place or lower the hoops by 1/2". If solved with air bumps, I will also need to check that the tires are okay at full articulation.
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:40 AM   #260 (permalink)
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I did some more measurements and calculations and I've come to the conclusion that I will need to remove nearly the entire width of the frame at the bottom for the 2.5x14 coilover to clear. I do have some strength concerns with that as well since I plan to place the air bumps in front of that C notch and the forces of winching/recovery. While possible, this is a difficult area to reinforce and to box on the inboard side with the motor mount being present and even that box would need to also then be notched to clear my upper control arm and reboxed.

To avoid that mess I decided to go with 2.0x14 coilovers in the front. Based on my approximate measurements they should be way easier to fit since they are narrower and shorter for the same amount of travel.

Like I previously mentioned, from my experience, 2.0s with DSC ride comparatively to 2.5s. When I started my build the DSCs were not available yet. The con to going with the smaller 2.0 is in something like a racing application where they will heat up and fade and the added volume of a 2.5 is needed, or on a heavy Jeep. But I suspect I've only added a few hundred pounds of sprung weight. Since I have the 2.5s in the rear, which see twice the work of the fronts, I should be in good shape. If I ever find that they're not meeting my needs I can always look into bypass shocks (although I truly don't think I ever will need them or else I'd be going down that road now).

The new coilovers will hopefully be in early next week.
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:57 AM   #261 (permalink)
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Here is a comparison between the 2.0x14 (bottom) and 2.5x14 (top) coilovers:



I continued with mounting the coilover behind the axle tube to make mounting the air bumps on top easy. The placement works fine but the axle side mount is getting to be ugly coming off the control arm mount and difficult to make.



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Old 07-13-2019, 02:31 PM   #262 (permalink)
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I decided to forget the airbumps in the front. After a conversation I was reminded that they aren't necessary and certainly not worth going through a headache to get the coilover mounted. If they end up easily fitting in anyway so be it.



Quote:
2) Because the coilovers aren't mounted in a true 1:1 ratio with the axle movement and the axle tube rolls as it cycles, there is an extra 1/2" of travel left before they bottom out at full bump. To prevent the axle from smashing through the engine, I'm either going to need air bumps in place or lower the hoops by 1/2". If solved with air bumps, I will also need to check that the tires are okay at full articulation.
I threw a tire and fender on to check the clearance at full articulation. It clears with some okay rubbing so I'm mirroring the hoop to the other side! This is great because it'll allow for extra uptravel when articulated and the axle/tire can go up further before it pushes the body up. That will make the Jeep more stable.

To mirror the hoop to the other side I was finding that my digital angle finder had some accuracy issues, I've worked around these short comings before, but I wanted to avoid the frustration so I picked up a pair of digital levels instead. Since my Jeep is level on the ground I won't have to recalibrate the angle finder.

And using the power of internet magic, the hoop is mirrored to the right side!



Cycling the axle you can see just how close the springs will get to the axle track bar bracket and the frame. Seeing this makes me glad I didn't suffer through 2.5s...



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Old 07-13-2019, 07:40 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Now that the hoops are in place, I decided to fully remeasure the frame and hoops and check axle alignment front to rear just to absolutely double check my alignment. I'm honestly a little confused with what I've found. The front frame and clip seem to be shifted 1/4" to the side when measuring from the frame to the brake caliper. But the axle appears to be absolutely centered by placing a line from the rear center to the front center. The front axle is also square to the rear axle. When I was working on the roll cage I did find that it was screwed slightly on the driver's side so maybe this has to do with all of that. From the factory my understanding is that measurements varied greatly too. All in all I'm going to say that it is good to go.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:55 PM   #264 (permalink)
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1/4" doesn't sound outrageous and doubt it will cause any problem, but I'm sure it will bug you. LOL
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Old 07-14-2019, 04:28 AM   #265 (permalink)
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Looking good, I had used the same idea of the metal tubing on mine and it is definitely a help in getting the upper and lower brackets placed. Packaging the 2.5's is definitely a big challenge, everything gets super tight. I am suprised that you would have to notch the frame as much as you indicated. It looks like your axle side mounts are outboard about as much as possible, so you must have the shocks leaned inward more than mine. If your 87 degree measurement was the inward slant, then they definitely are. Regardless, the 2.0's will be a whole lot easier to deal with from a packaging perspective and will ride fine.
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:12 AM   #266 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhorse View Post
1/4" doesn't sound outrageous and doubt it will cause any problem, but I'm sure it will bug you. LOL
It did bug me since it's impossible to measure the frame up front with all of it's bends. Thinking more about it, I think my engine might be shifted slightly since the transfercase is slightly shifted compared to stock and won't move over without putting the engine mounts in a bind. I'm sure if I were to measure my other Jeep I'd find all sorts of weirdness there too even though it's been street only before me. but I'm sticking my head in the sand on that.

However, it should drive straight and feel like it's driving straight from inside the Jeep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giles45shop View Post
Looking good, I had used the same idea of the metal tubing on mine and it is definitely a help in getting the upper and lower brackets placed. Packaging the 2.5's is definitely a big challenge, everything gets super tight. I am suprised that you would have to notch the frame as much as you indicated. It looks like your axle side mounts are outboard about as much as possible, so you must have the shocks leaned inward more than mine. If your 87 degree measurement was the inward slant, then they definitely are. Regardless, the 2.0's will be a whole lot easier to deal with from a packaging perspective and will ride fine.
What axle width are you running? I'm at 65wms and the Ford style 60 inner-C to WMS takes up a LOT of room compared to something like the Dana 30. It doesn't leave much room on the tube to move the mount outboard. Honestly, a stock Jeep axle would have probably given me about the same amount of room to play with. I wasn't even close to the tire. Even if I moved the hoop to place the coilover in a straight 90* the coilover then wanted to contact the track bar mount on the axle. The other thing is what is your CO length and uptravel? If I could have lowered the hoop more I could changed the point that the CO pivots.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:15 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Im actually never measured the WMS is for mine. It's a Teraflex 44. My track bar mount on the axle side is quite a bit different as well. I'm running the 2.5x14 Fox Factory series with 7/7 up/down. I stopped by the shop this AM and mine have 5 degree slant inward and 12 degree rearward slant at ride height. My biggest problem was the shock slder to the passenger side frame at full droop with the 3 link.
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:48 PM   #268 (permalink)
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To prevent the hoops from folding into the engine I am placing a spreader bar across the hoops and over the engine. The hoop I have came from Genright and is made from 0.120" wall 1-1/2" DOM with prebent ends.

To prevent any warping during welding, I welded on a temporary spreader bar between the hoops across the front of the engine. I then fully welded the hoops to the frame.


(spoiler: air bumps are happening)

I roughly mocked up the hoop spreader bar stacked on sheets of cardboard and held in place with tape to clear the supercharger and I found that the hood wouldn't close by about 1/2" due to the reinforcement down the center of the hood. So much for being easy! I'll be cutting and sliding down the center section about 1" to make room.





I want the bend in the tube to be centered over the supercharger but that places the hoop off center. I also want to keep the grill support rods (which aren't symmetrical to each other... I've been looking at them for 10 years and I never realized that...) Rather than only choosing either/or, I decided to have it all and cut the spreader bar in half to stretch it. There's not really a great place to cut it that won't waste the section so I just cut it right in the middle; I have new DOM that I'll be cutting to patch in the center section.

With the center section cut, I placed a sleeve over the 2 ends so they could slide but still be straight. I also raised the hoop up 1/2" off the supercharger to take into account the engine moving around in it's mounts.



I then notched and cut both "extensions", welded the flanges on at the table. Before welding the extensions onto the hoops and spreader I made sure both halves of the spreader were at the same angle.





I unbolted and removed both halves of the spreader and replaced the sleeve with a smaller one. I then welded on a temporary girdle to prevent movement while I worked on lowering the center.

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Old 07-14-2019, 09:49 PM   #269 (permalink)
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I lowered the hood and marked the hood brace location onto the spreader bar (which by the way, the center hood brace is not exactly center of the hood... at least on mine.). I then marked the width of the hood brace and marked a few inches further so there will room to add gussets.

Then I cut the spreader on those widest marks.





To make the lower center section I cut ovals out of 1/4" bar and cut a new DOM section to length. The Makita LC1230 saw I had bought when I started this build worked perfectly to cut little amounts off the tubing at a time in order to get a tight fit.



I hurriedly cut the girdle off to see if the work ended up paying off and I am happy to report that it was well worth the effort. The hood closes perfectly and leaves a comfortable gap to the spreader.



I knew that this was going to be a challenge since day 1 of planing out the build back in late 2017 so it feels good having it checked off the list!

And finally, for your viewing pleasure, the bend around the supercharger:

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Old 07-16-2019, 09:29 AM   #270 (permalink)
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I got the reservoirs mounted and the hoses routed to the coilovers.

For the front I had to bend the refrigerant lines out of the way and shorten the upper radiator hose to move it down.





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Old 07-19-2019, 08:23 AM   #271 (permalink)
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I'll get deeper into tuning the coilovers once I get to that point, but for now I want to briefly explain how they work and how they relate to air bumps. The coilovers are simply a shock with a spring over it so I'm going to be forgetting about the spring aspect for now and only discussing the shock aspect. A normal shock does not know where it is in it's stroke, the axle could be near fully drooped or near bump and the shock will behave exactly the same. Because of that, you can not make the valving soft when you're at ride height and harsh as you get near bottoming out. You can however make a tune that can be more or less harsh based on speed of the shock travel by using shims that cover valve holes when a lot of oil is pushing against them. Kind of like how a house door can normally be open but a strong gust of wind will push it closed. There are also bypass shocks that are position sensitive, but that's not what I have, aren't available in a 2.0 coilover, and are typically used only in racing applications.

By adding in air bumps to the last few inches of travel you allow the Jeep/axle to come to a softer stop than suddenly bottoming out the coilover. Bottoming out is not an issue for slow crawling, but can be more so on fast forest roads and open desert.

This video is for a different model of air bumps than I have but there's some good clips through the video that show how they work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPL6lBqZJl0

For my uses front bumpstops are optional especially since I have 14" of travel before bottoming out. Even less so than the rear since the rear does twice the work and they are optional back there too. I know of several heavier Jeeps using the coilovers as the hard limit just fine. Especially with the DSCs. The benefit is being able to blowing through travel when I want to drive aggressively without hurting the Jeep or my back. It will create a second zone of sorts without having to use a bypass shock. That will equal better performance. The downside is that they make a clicking noise as they work. If I find that they end up being annoying I can convert them to a TJ style jounce jumper at a later date but that will require retuning the coilovers since the tune in them will be dependent on having air bumps.



This video lightly explains the DSC reservoirs that are on my front coilovers (I'll also be getting them for the rear coilovers) and hopefully shows why the air bumps aren't as necessary to prevent the suspension from getting packed up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hikPNmm-GLY and an article: https://accutuneoffroad.com/articles...djusters-work/

Since I positioned the coilovers on the top of the axle tube, packaging ended up being a bit tight for the air bumps. On the driver's side the coilover wants to get close to the air bump and on the passenger's side I also have to deal with steering getting close. Having the track bar in the front 3-link also pushes the axle over towards the passenger's side.

I had to rotate the cans slightly differently on each side to clear the pinch bolts for the coilovers and steering. The position on the frame however is nearly the same location on both sides.

They are set so the air bumps bottom out 1/16-1/8" before the coilovers do so that I will still maintain maximum up travel.

The easiest way I found to make slight adjustments to the can position is to mark lines on the cans and use a leveling laser to mark the position and make adjustments based on that.



For the pads, I used a set from PolyPerformance (PPI-3121) (same pads as Kartek used in the rear).

On the driver's side the pumpkin is partially where the pad needed to go. It's 1/2" high off the tube and the bump pads are 1/4" thick so I welded a 1/4" spacer to the bottom of the pads to match the height and then frenched it into the diff housing. I will be filling in the dips with weld and grinding smooth to finish the pad off.





To test pad placement while cycling the axle to make sure the air bumps won't "slip" off the edge of the pads under articulation I used paper as mockup air bumps so the tack welds wouldn't break with the rear deal:


(the angles are starting to play mind games. I assure you that the cans are vertical.)

Because my frame isn't perfectly straight (or something... I've stopped trying to figure it out), both bump pads ended up sitting symmetrical on the axle. I wasn't expecting that since the axle is centered at ride height on the Jeep and is pushed over at full bump by the track bar.


Last edited by toximus; 07-19-2019 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:34 PM   #272 (permalink)
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Bumpstop brackets are made from 3/16" plate:





I was able to tie the right side bumpstop into the notch for additional strength.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:41 PM   #273 (permalink)
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UCA plate to diff cover tie-in:



I made the outboard side extend out further so the brake line T block can connect up there.

My axle didn't come with a breather vent tapped into the housing so I added one to the cover:

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Old 08-19-2019, 12:47 PM   #274 (permalink)
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The gussets that come with the Genright hoop kit don't fit front to back like I wanted so I made my own gussets from 1/4". At the same time I made sure they clear the steering.



I fully welded the hoops and gussets and cut out the temporary spreader I had used.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:57 PM   #275 (permalink)
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I did another alignment and cycled the axle to be sure everything is still perfect and I welded the axle side trackbar mount in place. While welding I wrapped the ball joint in a wet paper towel.



Because of the leverage on the track bar mount I need to add more strength to this mount, I will be integrating an antisway bar tab into it as a gusset. Here's a mock up of what I have planned (more on this later):



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