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Old 02-09-2019, 12:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Ideas and thoughts at this point on a stretch.

I've been asking questions and throwing ideas out here for the past few weeks and have come up with a POSSIBLE plan. Nothing is written in stone until I actually start cutting and welding. And that won't be for a few more months until the weather warms up and all the WHITE stuff (snow) is gone.

So I got my ideas from a lot of different threads both on here and on Pirate. But I am using pictures from this thread on Pirate to give you an idea of what I am thinking. https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...sh-longer.html Thanks RangerRod for the ideas & hope you don't mind that I used your pictures.

So the basic idea is this, I was just going to stretch my rear axle back 4-5" so that would put me at ABOUT 98-99" WB right now. But instead I'm thinking I'll use the back of the tub we are taking off my daughters Jeep this summer and stretch the body & frame 5" and stretch the axle back as far as I can while using a GenRight Crawler Comp 20 fuel tank. https://genright.com/products/tj-lj-...te-20-gal.html

So here are some pictures from someone else's build just to give an idea of what I am talking about.





And then put back together.





And then do something like this with the frame also to get the added 5" of stretch.







So this would put me at approximately a 104" WB depending on how much I can actually push the rear axle back. Then I would just order LJ sized corners without a wheel opening and cut my own when I figure out where everything will be sitting. And then on top of that I will use either TNT's front stretch or a combination of TNT and GenRight parts to push the front axle forward 2-3" which could then net me an approximate 106" WB.

Since I am going to 3link front & 4link rear and will be making my own custom length links I don't see an issue there. I would have to use the link calculators to try and figure out my anti-squat and anti-dive as I was installing brackets.

And that brings up another question I have for those more experienced and intelligent than me.
When doing the rear suspension do I do just an upper triangulated suspension or a dual triangulated suspension in the rear?

And my understanding is that unless I was to cut the front frame rails off and redo the whole front suspension it really isn't practical to try and do a 4 link on the front?

For all of you who are already running a 3link front suspension how does it handle? I've read that it can cause some issues with anti-dive? Or pulling to one side when braking? So I'd like to hear what it is like and how it handles.

So fire away with your comments, ideas, thoughts, criticism or what ever.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:09 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildman4x4nut View Post
And that brings up another question I have for those more experienced and intelligent than me.
When doing the rear suspension do I do just an upper triangulated suspension or a dual triangulated suspension in the rear?
If you aren't going to be using trailing arms, I would go with double triangulated as it's not too much more work to build the cross member then you are already doing with the frame stretch and you get the advantages of less roll steer.

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And my understanding is that unless I was to cut the front frame rails off and redo the whole front suspension it really isn't practical to try and do a 4 link on the front?
You do not have to cut the front frame rails off to triangulate the front control arms. However, you will have to move the frame mounts outside the frame and the arms will have to travel through the wheel well arch. However, it will be a balancing act to get the arms far enough outside the frame to triangulate them but close enough to the frame to not loose steering angle on the tires.

In my build I didn't modify the front frame, but installed the frame mounts 7.5" outside the frame with my arms at 20.11* each. The tires just miss them at full lock. I did however, stretch the front axle to just about even with the grill. If you are only stretching the front 2-3" you wouldn't have to install them 7.5" outside the frame and could get away with less.

YMMV
Joel.
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
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If you aren't going to be using trailing arms, I would go with double triangulated as it's not too much more work to build the cross member then you are already doing with the frame stretch and you get the advantages of less roll steer.



You do not have to cut the front frame rails off to triangulate the front control arms. However, you will have to move the frame mounts outside the frame and the arms will have to travel through the wheel well arch. However, it will be a balancing act to get the arms far enough outside the frame to triangulate them but close enough to the frame to not loose steering angle on the tires.

In my build I didn't modify the front frame, but installed the frame mounts 7.5" outside the frame with my arms at 20.11* each. The tires just miss them at full lock. I did however, stretch the front axle to just about even with the grill. If you are only stretching the front 2-3" you wouldn't have to install them 7.5" outside the frame and could get away with less.

YMMV
Joel.
I thought I had always read that trying to 4 link the front was pretty much impossible while trying to clear the engine/exhaust/driveline/frame.

Maybe I am confusing things with trying to triangulate the front and not have to run a track bar.
What is the benefit of running 4 links in the front over 3 links? And vise a verse, Why do more people seem to running just a 3 link over a 4 link?

I really appreciate all your comments and help you have offered.
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Old 02-09-2019, 09:29 AM   #4 (permalink)
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What is the benefit of running 4 links in the front over 3 links? And vise a verse, Why do more people seem to running just a 3 link over a 4 link?

I really appreciate all your comments and help you have offered.
The only reason more people don't 4 link the front is it's way harder to package. Clearance issues. So much easier to 3 link with panhard and still get good performance out of it.
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Old 02-09-2019, 09:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The only reason more people don't 4 link the front is it's way harder to package. Clearance issues. So much easier to 3 link with panhard and still get good performance out of it.
And that is what I thought and pretty much why I am not looking at 4 linking my front. Other than a few aftermarket manufactures no one offers a 4 link front either and I would be curios to know what their AS & AD numbers are.
They are still running a track bar which I have no issues with doing in the front. Is there any real benefit to running a 4 link similar to stock in the front?

I thought I had read sometime/somewhere that even with extended links in the front using a 4 link caused less flex than a 3 link? Again maybe I read it wrong which is why I am asking now so I don't screw things up when I get ready to do all this work.
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:01 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildman4x4nut View Post
I thought I had always read that trying to 4 link the front was pretty much impossible while trying to clear the engine/exhaust/driveline/frame.

Maybe I am confusing things with trying to triangulate the front and not have to run a track bar.
What is the benefit of running 4 links in the front over 3 links? And vise a verse, Why do more people seem to running just a 3 link over a 4 link?

I really appreciate all your comments and help you have offered.
The benefit of running a 4 link instead of a three link is doing away with the track bar and allowing the axle to travel straight up and down. it will also allow you to get rid of the steering box.

Triangulating the uppers while keeping the upper control arms inside the frame is almost impossible as you need the axle side mounts to be too close together.

If you mount the uppers on the inside of the frame, the drivers side, the upper arm will intersect the drive shaft, possibly the exhaust, and the oil pan. On the passengers side the upper arm will intersect with the exhaust and possible the oil pan and the starter.

If you mount the uppers on top of the frame the drivers side will intersect the drive shaft during compression (with a high pinion D60), and the passenger side will intersect the exhaust. You can adjust the exhaust to run closer to the pan and alleviate this one.

Photo #1 is a diagram of how mine are positioned with a Full Width 2008 F350 Superduty D60 axle. I'm at 20.11* per side for 40.22* of triangulation

Photo #2 is a diagram of how they would be positioned if the same axle was still inside the wheel arch and stretched approximately 2-3". This is at 20.556* per side for 41.112* of triangulation.

The blue lines are uppers the red lines are lowers.

As usual YMMV. My 97 jeep might with a 6cyl might be different than yours.
Joel.
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Old 02-09-2019, 11:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The benefit of running a 4 link instead of a three link is doing away with the track bar and allowing the axle to travel straight up and down. it will also allow you to get rid of the steering box.

Triangulating the uppers while keeping the upper control arms inside the frame is almost impossible as you need the axle side mounts to be too close together.

If you mount the uppers on the inside of the frame, the drivers side, the upper arm will intersect the drive shaft, possibly the exhaust, and the oil pan. On the passengers side the upper arm will intersect with the exhaust and possible the oil pan and the starter.

If you mount the uppers on top of the frame the drivers side will intersect the drive shaft during compression (with a high pinion D60), and the passenger side will intersect the exhaust. You can adjust the exhaust to run closer to the pan and alleviate this one.

Photo #1 is a diagram of how mine are positioned with a Full Width 2008 F350 Superduty D60 axle. I'm at 20.11* per side for 40.22* of triangulation

Photo #2 is a diagram of how they would be positioned if the same axle was still inside the wheel arch and stretched approximately 2-3". This is at 20.556* per side for 41.112* of triangulation.

The blue lines are uppers the red lines are lowers.

As usual YMMV. My 97 jeep might with a 6cyl might be different than yours.
Joel.

So a couple of things to look at with my build as opposed to your build.

I have narrow axles and am keeping them to stay as street legal as I can here in WA. So my front axle is 61.5" wide approx. and my rear is 60.5" wide. Also I am keeping my steering box and using hydro assist instead of going full hydro. My Jeep is mostly a trail Jeep and will be trailered to campgrounds and then driven a short distance to the trail head. But I want to keep those streetable manners if I can. Hence why I am only going to stretch the front 2-3" instead of going as far forward.

Yes my V-8 changes a few things as opposed to your I-6 but oil pan and exhaust are all still issues. Once I get under it and really start to look at how things line up will decide which side I try to put my upper 3rd link on. I think trying to do a 4 link unless I just did them inside the frame would be too labor intensive for the benefits.

And I am retaining my air bag suspension and the in-frame fuel tank. Plus I'm trying to keep the tires under the flares as much as possible.
I'm a veteran also and have my lower right leg amputated so being able to lower the Jeep down to it's bumpstops makes it easier for me to get in and out of it.
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I have narrow axles and am keeping them to stay as street legal as I can here in WA. So my front axle is 61.5" wide approx. and my rear is 60.5" wide. Also I am keeping my steering box and using hydro assist instead of going full hydro. My Jeep is mostly a trail Jeep and will be trailered to campgrounds and then driven a short distance to the trail head. But I want to keep those streetable manners if I can. Hence why I am only going to stretch the front 2-3" instead of going as far forward.
This the kicker right here. If you are keeping your steering box you do not want to triangulate the front end. You WILL have bump steer if you do.

Sounds like a 3-link is the way to go.

Joel.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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This the kicker right here. If you are keeping your steering box you do not want to triangulate the front end. You WILL have bump steer if you do.

Sounds like a 3-link is the way to go.

Joel.
Joel,
I am not 100% against going full hydro but I need to research more and talk to folks who have done it on here. I know it is possible to do full hydro and keep it safe and reliable to drive on the road. But I'd want to make sure before I make that decision.

But yes if I am keeping the steering box and hydro assist then a 3 link or a non-triangulated front would be better.

And I guess that brings up that question:
TeraFlex and Full Traction both offer a 4 link front suspension in their kits. Neither are a dual triangulated setup. Is it better to just 3 link it or what are the pluses and minuses of going with a 4 link w/panhard bar?
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hey thatís my shitty build!

My only thought is if your already going for an lj length wheelbase why not just stretch the tub to run a factory top? You are in Washington so I assume youíll need it.

The 3 link or 4 link debate in the front basically comes down to wether you keep the steering box or go full hydro. I have assist and 40ís on my ranger and wish I would have went full hydro. Itís barely driven on the road now. The load reactive orbitals full hydro is pretty good now. But Iím kind of a newb to it.
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Hey thatís my shitty build!

My only thought is if your already going for an lj length wheelbase why not just stretch the tub to run a factory top? You are in Washington so I assume youíll need it.

The 3 link or 4 link debate in the front basically comes down to wether you keep the steering box or go full hydro. I have assist and 40ís on my ranger and wish I would have went full hydro. Itís barely driven on the road now. The load reactive orbitals full hydro is pretty good now. But Iím kind of a newb to it.
Hehehe, I don't think yours is a shitty build and it gave me idea.

If I stretch the body to LJ length then I still have that rear overhang to catch on rocks and stuff. If I push the rear axle back I'll cut down on my departure angle. And to be honest I haven't ran a full top in years. Most of the time I'm running a safari top and a duster on the rear. Which works fine for me now. I'm mainly trying to get that little bit more of a WB stretch without making the tub that much longer. And since all I would need is to get 5" sewn into a duster I'd be good.

As far as 4 linking the front I get if I triangle it then it won't work but if I am keeping the links in about the same angles as stock is what I am asking about.

I like my hydro assist that is on the Jeep now and really the only reason to go full hydro is to be able to stretch the front farther than 2-3".
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Old 02-10-2019, 09:23 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Stock angles require panhard to locate axle. Not enough triangulation. 40 deg minimum tossed all around net. Could you get by with less? Probably, but if you are anything like me you don't like to push limits and experiment with the time and money invested in this stuff.
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Old 02-10-2019, 09:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Yes I know I know that the they have to be triangulated if I DON'T run a panhard bar. But I am asking if I run a panhard bar is there any benefit to running 4 link over 3 link?
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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My thoughts on that is binding as things flex out. On a muscle car it's fine to run 4 parallel links with panhard because the axle is not articulating or dropping out much. Good for strength and sending a boatload of torque through that setup. In a Jeep with a panhard and 4 nearly parallel links there will be binding because the axle will try to shift over a little as it drops out, or gets stuffed, but the 4 links will try to stop that. Binding.
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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This is what I thought I had read somewhere also but couldn't remember 100% so was why I was asking. I'm sure as the length of the arms increase the more flex you will get before binding.

It sounds like it is just going to be easier to do a 3link in the front. Unless I decide to go full hydro and I'm not sure that it is worth the expense.
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