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Old 11-19-2011, 08:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Dana 18 Quadratrac Underdrive

Mieser and I have been discussing an idea we saw on the web a while ago about combining a Borg Warner 1339 QuadraTrac low range with a D18, like described here:

Ultimate Dana Spicer 18 CJ2A / CJ3A / GPW Transfercase | Homer’s Garage

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11/30/2012 update: Details on this conversion can be found here:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...l#post15039590

-----


The basic idea is this:

A quadratrac t-case has a bolt on planetary style low range, that is not all that different in concept to a Warn/Saturn overdrive. My question... what would it take to install the underdrive on the back of a D18? Has anyone here done or seen one done? Does anyone have any additional info about the homersgarage setup? Until I see pics or see it in person, his adaptation description reminds me an awful lot of the 50mpg HHO setups you read about but can never find any supporting evidence for.

Quadratrac


Quadratrac Low range






Warn/Saturn OD




Dana 18


The quadratrac came behind a TH400 with a long 10 spline output shaft.


It appears that the top/main drive gear in the quadrtrac slides over and rides on that shaft. It appears to be driven by the shaft via a drive hub (non low range model) or via the low range gear set in either 1:1 or 2.57:1.

The D18 usually uses a 6 spline 26 or 29 tooth top drive gear, although there were apparently some other weird combinations out there (10, 15, 21, 23 spline) as listed here:
The Novak Guide to Dana 18 & 20 Gears Interchange

I've seen the 10 spline is listed as 'mitsubishi' jeep, but I'm not sure what transmission that may have been. It is also listed for a T14 trans.. I don't know if any of these options are compatible with the quadratrac 10 spline or not.

I have read that the SM420 and SM465 can be found with a 10 spline output, but I'm not sure if it's compatible with the quadratrac 10 spline or not.

I see a lot of challenges with this adaptation... you would need to somehow make an adapter of some sort between the transmission output shaft and low range input shaft/sun gear (or luck out with something like an SM420 and a custom/short adapter plate). You would need to build in a means of allowing the D18 drive gear to freewheel around the trans output shaft and carry the thrust load imposed by the helical cut on the gear. You would also need a method of coupling that gear to the pinion case in the low range unit. And lastly, you'd need some kind of plate adapter behind the housing and the D18. (assuming there is even room for it behind a D18).

This website has some more quadratrac info
Jeep QuadraTrac

And some more info on the warn OD
Warn/Saturn Overdrive | CJ-2A

Novak resources:
D18: The Dana Spicer Model 18 Transfer Case - Novak Conversions
TH400: The GM HydraMatic TH400 Transmission - Novak Conversions
Quadratrac: The Borg-Warner 1305 / 1339 QuadraTrac - Novak Conversions
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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For the amount of energy, time, & money, it's not really worth it in my opinion.

You'd end up with a 1 off set up, & if anything ever goes wrong with it (like on the trail), your screwed.

I wheeled a D18 for 5 years in my IH (It's Heavy!) Scout & I have to say that even though many say it's a "weak" T-case, they are good little stout cases.
However, I don't really think they are strong enough to hand an under-drive/doubler (which equals more torque on parts).

If your really set on one, google/search for "Cold-Duck".
It's a Dana 20 with the output-hacked off, with the rear output connected to another D20 or D18. Giving you 2:1, 2.46:1 & 4.9:1.

I just recently talked to a Scout guy that had put a Klune reduction box in front of a D20. Although I believe his transmission output was round, while the rear of the klune had an adapter to the Texas pattern (he was running Scout D300).

Personally, in his case I would have suggested a Jeep round D300 over the texas Scout 300, just on availability alone.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The biggest problem in 80" wheelbase vehicles is that there isn't a lot of room for a traditional crawler/doubler. You just don't have the rear driveshaft to play with.

I think the quadratrac 'underdrive' is possible, but would require....

-LONG 10 spline custom output shaft for whatever transmission you want to run. The 'easy' answer would be use a transmission that requires a spud shaft ( like your typical SM420 adapter from Novak. Then just make that spud shaft whatever length you wanted. There is even a bearing in the adapter to help support everything.

-An adapter plate from the Dana 18 PTO cover plate bolt pattern to the underdrive case bolt pattern. This needs a seal or two, a support bearing, etc.

-A custom input gear for the D18. This needs a few bearings to ride on the input shaft and some kind of thrust bearing on each side. It also needs a coupler tooth/spline on the back of the gear to mate up to the underdrive.

I think this is very possible, but the main issue is that the underdrive is pretty dang large and may not have enough room in the chassis without a LOT of modifications.

This begs the question...

What else could you do for an 'underdrive' in a short wheelbase vehicle?
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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how about one of the t-18/98 wide ratio 4 speed trannies with the 6. whatever granny low 1st gears.
then use a saturn overdrive to give it a little smaller jump rather than having to go from 1st to a much higher 2nd gear.
you'd have 8 forward speeds, with the first two being your rock crawling gears.
and there's room for all of it.
just a thought.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The granny 4 spd in a flat fender isn't as easy as it looks. It requires a lot of mods to the tunnel to do it right....or the thing hangs down a bit.

The OP'r has a T98a waiting to go in.....

Even with a granny 4 spd and all the bells and whistles you can still only go so low.

SM420, 3.15 tera gears, and 5.38s is 'only' 119:1. Now, that is probably low enough for 99% of anything, but what if you want lower? You can always work around it with an automatic, or do with even deeper axle gears, but overall its pretty challenging to get 'toyota' low gearing in a flat fender.

If I was going to do it all over again I would do a T18, Dana 18 with 3.15 tera gears, and an overdrive.....with 5.38s or deeper. I think that would be about the best bolt in combo you could get in a standard transmission 80" wheelbase. Lots of room for a front driveshaft....and all just a phone call away.

I would like to see some more people pull off some interesting ultra small doublers, underdrives, etc. Tech like that is just cool....
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:34 AM   #6 (permalink)
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If you're considering 465, I wonder how short of an adapter could be made to go to a Klune/BlackBox to Jeep 300..

Then again, 465/Atlas would be the best/most pricey solution as well.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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SM465 has a nice short adapter, so does a T18/t19/t98 also.

The atlas t-case doesn't really like to fit in a flat fender frame without moving some stuff around. It needs to be tilted way down or the powertrain shifted way over....or the frame built wider....

The i-blackbox from NWF is one of the shortest doublers out there.

Most of the D300 transmission adapters are longer than the D18 stuff however.

I think OTT pulled off a SM420/toyota mini-truck reduction box/D300 in a 80" wheelbase rig.

Having more than one low range ratio can be nice also. 5:1 low is nice for crawling, but a 2:1 is nice for just about everything else.....

Making is AFFORDABLE is another big bonus. An Atlas transfer case is worth more than most flat fenders!
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Actually; you will not need the ultra-long 10-spline. The shaft is only that long because it goes all the way through the chain portion of the case, to the very back where the connection is actually made.

The shaft is that long in a QT application because the ‘drive’ actually happens at the rear of the case. In a case without low-range, you have a drive plate that sits under the tin cover that is visible in your exploded diagram. (parts are called out as ‘drive hub’ and ‘power take off cover’) In a case WITH low range, those are replaced with the low range box. The power flow is at the rear of the unit, if that makes sense.

The really, really good news is that the 10-spline setup that is used in the QT is a commonly available tractor parts spline size. 1-3/16” 10-spline, iirc. I will amend that if needed. I have a few pto couplers and things that I purchased when I was looking at a similar use of QT low-range units. I have several apart and can get you pictures, measurements, or a whole low-range unit or three if you need.

EDIT: I also have a few bad TH400s sitting around. I could cut down an output shaft for you to use as the input/intermediate shaft of your setup.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:36 AM   #9 (permalink)
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We where thinking of using the QT low range 'behind' a D18 similar to its stock use. We would need a long spline shaft to do this I think....and a gear to feed the power back in on top of the D18...all very similar to the 1339 t-case.

If you used some of the parts of the QT low range to make a crawler box that went between the transmission and t-case I think the long shaft might be able to be eliminated.

Along the same lines. I have to wonder if using something like a planetary from an automatic transmission could be used to make a scratch build underdrive. I still think one of the biggest problems with the QT low range is just the size of the dang thing.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
We where thinking of using the QT low range 'behind' a D18 similar to its stock use. We would need a long spline shaft to do this I think....and a gear to feed the power back in on top of the D18...all very similar to the 1339 t-case.

If you used some of the parts of the QT low range to make a crawler box that went between the transmission and t-case I think the long shaft might be able to be eliminated.

Along the same lines. I have to wonder if using something like a planetary from an automatic transmission could be used to make a scratch build underdrive. I still think one of the biggest problems with the QT low range is just the size of the dang thing.
I know exactly how you intend on using it and I am all for it.

You only need enough length to go from the back of the D18 (not from the transmission) to the drive gear in the low-range unit.

The amount of shaft sticking out of the TH400 in the pictures goes through the upper chain sprocket and then back to the low-range box (or drive hub). Basically, the photo of the TH400 output shaft is misleading as to the needed length because the 2” thick adapter from transmission to transfer case is missing in the photo – AND – the 8-or-so inch thick chain drive housing (main part of the case) is missing, and the shaft runs out the back of the t-case where the spline engagement happens. I have basically every piece you could want to make this happen except for two;

1: The drive adapter between the back of the D18 shift collar area and the drive gear of the low range unit – this you would either make from tractor shafting, or a cut down TH400 output shaft.
2: The mounting plate between the back of the D18 and the front of the low-range box – I have case halves you could use to get every possible measurement, though, for this part.

The QT low-range has several major advantages over pieces out of an automatic
-you won’t need to make a housing (it already exists, and has drain and fill ports)
-you won’t need to make shifting mechanisms internally (already there for you)
-you won’t need to fight the spline situation (instead of cutting splined shafts of odd sizes to go into the automatic transmission parts, you already have a planetary unit with a common spline size)
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Doesn't the D18 input gear need to ride OVER the transmission output shaft? I think it needs to spin and have some kinda of trust restraint too?

I require pictures....even paint pictures will work.

Thank you for contributing to the thread!

I think we need to get some parts in peoples hands and start taking more detailed pictures and getting some measurements.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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We need a picture of a D18 with the back cover off (number 9 in the parts diagram). That is the next big thing to move this forward. I have a brother with stacks of military stuff, so if nobody else can find/take a picture I will try to fit in a trip to his place in the near future.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I have a spare D20 case in the garage. Its the same thing. I can make measurements of that pattern easy enough. Finding the center of that pattern might prove a little odd since its not a round pattern?
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
I have a spare D20 case in the garage. Its the same thing. I can make measurements of that pattern easy enough. Finding the center of that pattern might prove a little odd since its not a round pattern?
Not so much for the bolt pattern. I have D20’s I could get that hole size and pattern off if needed. I want to see the gear/shaft/sliding shift collar.

That will determine how much stuff is needed to go between the QTLR box and the D18. My recollection (and the parts diagram supports this) is that if you pull that tin cover off the back, you will find a big empty space. The various OD units have their own shaft/bearings and gear teeth that mesh with the original counter gear.

Need to figure out how to get power (high and low range) OUT of the D18 case, and then where/how to put it back into the D18.

EDIT: I do think that the D20 will play a key role in making this work. Possibly you will wind up with a hybrid D20/18/QTLR box at the end of this. Mostly due to the sliding collar/shifting/output shaft that is ready-made to go into the rear PTO cover of the case.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This is the back of my custom sm420 to D18...



The input gear to the D18 just slides over the output shaft of the transmission. This is VERY similar to how a normal T90 to D18 looks without the overdrive.

I'm open to suggestions, but I am fairly sure that there needs to be a longer transmission output shaft, just like the TH400?
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
This is the back of my custom sm420 to D18...



The input gear to the D18 just slides over the output shaft of the transmission. This is VERY similar to how a normal T90 to D18 looks without the overdrive.

I'm open to suggestions, but I am fairly sure that there needs to be a longer transmission output shaft, just like the TH400?
Rather than a super-long transmission output shaft, the normal overdrive kits are supported fully, and take power off the transmission output shaft, out into the OD housing, and then:
EITHER straight back into the t-case to the counter gear (in direct) through the big gear teeth in the OD pictures
OR through the planetary set, and then into the case to the counter gear via the big gear teeth pictured with the overdrive.

Rather than emulate the long TH400 shaft, you need to emulate the areas of the overdrive unit where they interface with the t-case.

The QTLR box has a bearing at the far end, and the drive hub rides on a bearing in the case half (which would need to be incorporated in your range box adapter stuff). Don’t worry about the output shaft of the TH400 – worry about the input stuff of the Warn (etc) overdrive. That’s the key to doing this.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Here's a pic of the back of a 29 tooth/6spline setup. (just took this a few weeks ago). Doesn't look all that different than Meiser's custom 10 spline SM420 setup. Unfortunately I just pulled this all apart so it's a little late to take measurements as-installed. But if you need some measurements of piece parts, I can do that pretty easily.



Here's a pic of what the back would like with half of the overdrive guts installed (typically called the 'bull gear').





Like Mieser had mentioned, I am actually in process of rebuilding a T98 for my flatty... and as I ran the numbers and started thinking about the options, well, it reminded me of that link I posted in the first post which got me thinking... what's better than 84:1..... 215:1 (and for the record, I did use to own a toyota, hence the needless interest in lower gears).

I'd love to draw this all up in CAD along with the QT parts and see what I can come up with.... more later, gotta eat dinner.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jalbrecht42 View Post
Here's a pic of the back of a 29 tooth/6spline setup. (just took this a few weeks ago). Doesn't look all that different than Meiser's custom 10 spline SM420 setup. Unfortunately I just pulled this all apart so it's a little late to take measurements as-installed. But if you need some measurements of piece parts, I can do that pretty easily.



Here's a pic of what the back would like with half of the overdrive guts installed (typically called the 'bull gear').






Like Mieser had mentioned, I am actually in process of rebuilding a T98 for my flatty... and as I ran the numbers and started thinking about the options, well, it reminded me of that link I posted in the first post which got me thinking... what's better than 84:1..... 215:1 (and for the record, I did use to own a toyota, hence the needless interest in lower gears).

I'd love to draw this all up in CAD along with the QT parts and see what I can come up with.... more later, gotta eat dinner.

The last photo is the missing link for me. It explains the reason for the size and shape of the OD parts. The thing I never stopped to consider.


What is it?






The planetary lives INSIDE the t-case. Inside the bull gear. Cannot really park the QT parts inside the D18.

But that doesn't mean this won't work. You still need to get power off the mainshaft of the transmission into the QTLR, and you still need to get power in onto the countergear. The QTLR has to live on the back PTO port of the D18. You will be probably looking to make a spud that will go over the spline of the transmission output as it currently is. That spud coupler can be hooked to, or part of an intermediate shaft down into the QTLR box, then your old bull gear will need to be modified to become 'one' with the output hub of the QTLR box. The QTLR has two bearings that the planetary rides between.

At this point the real question is supporting the shaft out at the re-worked bull gear. Will the spud shaft setup be rigid enough? Or will a thrid bearing need to be incorporated in the QTLR adapter?
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think most Dana 18 equipped factory transmissions use the D18 input gear to provide preload on the transmission output shaft. This could make the spud shaft harder to make. The 'easy' spud shaft would be a new longer one for something like a novak SM420 to D18 adapter. You could just make on longer with whatever spline.

The overdrive gear that drives the intermediate shaft might be able to be used in a gutted form, but I think it would have to be VERY modified to get it to work right.

I think you could put a bearing in the adapter from the D18 PTO pattern to the underdrive pattern to support the longer output shaft or spud shaft.

Providing thrust resistance and position of the new input gear to the D18 would also be another issue.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
I think most Dana 18 equipped factory transmissions use the D18 input gear to provide preload on the transmission output shaft. This could make the spud shaft harder to make. The 'easy' spud shaft would be a new longer one for something like a novak SM420 to D18 adapter. You could just make on longer with whatever spline.

The overdrive gear that drives the intermediate shaft might be able to be used in a gutted form, but I think it would have to be VERY modified to get it to work right.

I think you could put a bearing in the adapter from the D18 PTO pattern to the underdrive pattern to support the longer output shaft or spud shaft.

Providing thrust resistance and position of the new input gear to the D18 would also be another issue.
Probably need to look into buying a few worn-out/exploded overdrive units.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
I think most Dana 18 equipped factory transmissions use the D18 input gear to provide preload on the transmission output shaft.
It's not clear to me right now if it actually preloads the bearing on the shaft or if it simply 'traps' the bearing on the shaft. That is, if you left the nut and gear off the ouput shaft, I don't think it can move forward (the interface between the input shaft and output shaft prevents that) and it can't move aft, as the rear main shaft bearing and t-case interface prevents that. I'm not sure however if the input shaft/output shaft can carry the thrust load. Anybody know the details on that?

Here's an exploded view of a T90 fwiw.. (note that number 17 is 1st/rev and not the gear inside the t-case).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
Providing thrust resistance and position of the new input gear to the D18 would also be another issue.
I think an adapter plate with a built in spud shaft and bearing (a bearing to carry both radial and thrust load on the outer shaft/helical cut gear) and bearing(s) inside for the inner spud shaft to ride on would work. I took some rough measurements and I'll try to sketch something up when I get a chance.

Rustywagoneer: If you could get some measurements that would help a lot!

Depth measurements from face of the QTLR to the face of the planet carrier (with it installed/seated into the QTLR)
Depth measurements from face of the QTLR to the end of the sun gear/female splined hub.
Approx depth of splines in hub
Approx OD of the QTLR unit (I'm thinking this thing is going to be HUGE on the back of a D18, it may even hit the parking brake).

Photo of the back of a QT case, with the LR unit removed.
If you want to take some measurements of what is visible on the back of the t-case (the 10 spline shaft, drive hub, other stuff) that would also be helpful. In the end, the back of this adapter plate thing should look like the back of the t-case-LR.

I just noticed the latest issue of JP has a QT rebuild and a D18/OD article... good timing.... but not enough pictures.
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Old 11-23-2011, 05:44 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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....

Rustywagoneer: If you could get some measurements that would help a lot!

Depth measurements from face of the QTLR to the face of the planet carrier (with it installed/seated into the QTLR)
Depth measurements from face of the QTLR to the end of the sun gear/female splined hub.
Approx depth of splines in hub
Approx OD of the QTLR unit (I'm thinking this thing is going to be HUGE on the back of a D18, it may even hit the parking brake).

Photo of the back of a QT case, with the LR unit removed.
If you want to take some measurements of what is visible on the back of the t-case (the 10 spline shaft, drive hub, other stuff) that would also be helpful. In the end, the back of this adapter plate thing should look like the back of the t-case-LR.

I just noticed the latest issue of JP has a QT rebuild and a D18/OD article... good timing.... but not enough pictures.
I will print your post and gather information. Probably will not post back up until Monday.

EDIT: Most of the time when I pull a D20 off of a manual transmission, I find that the bull gear isn't 'tight' on the output shaft. The nylock nut is there, but isn't pre-loading anything. I'm not saying that it's right, or that the stuff wasn't tight when it was born - just that a lot of functioning units seem to be running with clearance in that joint, rather than preload.
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Last edited by rustywagoneersdotcom; 11-23-2011 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 11-23-2011, 10:43 AM   #23 (permalink)
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BRAINSTORM!

What about a 2wd T90 output shaft. I could swear they are longer than the 4wd shaft and are even 10 spline? Trying to find a pic now....

I had this idea right after I hit send on my last email!
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Old 11-23-2011, 11:25 AM   #24 (permalink)
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BRAINSTORM AGAIN....

The output shaft for a T90 in a 2wd Jeepster with the factory overdrive option could be dang near perfect!
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Old 11-23-2011, 11:34 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Currently my thinking on the intermediate shaft from the SM420 to the QTLR is based on a cut-down QT TH400 output shaft.

-Basically, cut off the threaded portion of the trans mainshaft behind the splines, face/drill/tap it.

-A ‘spud’ with the 6 (or 10) spline female to match the output shaft sits where the bull gear used to.

-The spud has the modified TH400 shaft welded or splined to it.

-A long bolt runs through the TH400 shaft to hold the trans output, spud, and intermediate shaft together. Also this could preload the bearing if needed by shimming between the spud and the bearing.

-The original drive relationship exists inside the QTLR box.

-OUT of the QTLR box the original drive hub is modified by having a tube/hollow shaft welded to it, which sends power down to a modified bull gear at the end of the shaft. Essentially the original QT drive hub becomes the OD-unit style bull-gear. It runs on bushings on the TH400 shaft.
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Last edited by rustywagoneersdotcom; 11-23-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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