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Old 07-22-2019, 05:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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My not a build thread question thread

I have been tirelessly searching and I cannot believe some of the awesome tech within this subforum!

Build threads from Mieser & supersize75k5 have been exceptionally inspirational. I have figured out my plan in my mind except for the engine and the transmission.

I've been out of a Jeep for just under a decade and it's time to build one. Rust is a major problem in Canada so I think I'll be better off buying a new body. I know I want to run Toy axles for weight and width and I love the stance of supersize75k5's Willys. I plan to use the same 34" pizza cutter TSLs.

I think a D300 is the obvious choice for the transfer case and running toys I won't have to flip it.

For fun and "simplicity" in packaging I want to try air shocks up front, I know leaf springs would be the easiest but if I am going to start from scratch I'd rather try to do it right the first time. Not 100% sold on what to do out back yet, maybe coils.

I cannot determine what power plant to use on this vehicle? Weight is a concern, I'd like to keep it under 3500lbs if possible. I think I'd rather stick with an automatic but not a deal breaker to go manual. But I don't know what to choose?

Originally I was thinking a supercharged ecotec but I cannot find anyone that has some completed a build on here with a "normal" transmission? I know supersize75k5 discussed it in his thread but never went anywhere with it and as much as I want a V8 and have a mint donor sitting in my driveway I could pillage if I don't sell the truck I don't want to go too crazy stretching the tub if I don't have to... plus I think the Toyota's would explode.

So, with all the gurus in here, what do you feel is the best power plant to swap into one of these old relics? I definitely want to stay fuel injected
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I am in Ontario as well. I am currently building a 51 CJ3A to be a rockcralwer.
My list is
51 Willys body (repaired and replaced broken and rusted out pieces
2005 TJ chassis cut and shrunk 6"
TJ parallel 4 link front with adjustable controls arms and johnny joints
Single triangulated rear with johnny joints
TJ rubicon axles trussed and Chromoly shafts
2002 4.3L V6 from a Sonoma using a Howell stand alone computer
advanced adapters plate to TF999 (1985 CJ7) manual Valve body and winters shifter
Dana 300 flipped twin sticked and 4 to 1
Corbeau seats

still need to figure out cooling and fuel tank

For us in Canada the 4.3 is a great engine tons of them out there. I bought the parts truck for $500. The TF999 is the trans used from 1980-1999 in CJ7 YJ and TJ.

@jeepintj on instagram. My build is slow as most are. But plan to have in on the road for next year.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I am in Ontario as well. I am currently building a 51 CJ3A to be a rockcralwer.
My list is
51 Willys body (repaired and replaced broken and rusted out pieces
2005 TJ chassis cut and shrunk 6"
TJ parallel 4 link front with adjustable controls arms and johnny joints
Single triangulated rear with johnny joints
TJ rubicon axles trussed and Chromoly shafts
2002 4.3L V6 from a Sonoma using a Howell stand alone computer
advanced adapters plate to TF999 (1985 CJ7) manual Valve body and winters shifter
Dana 300 flipped twin sticked and 4 to 1
Corbeau seats

still need to figure out cooling and fuel tank

For us in Canada the 4.3 is a great engine tons of them out there. I bought the parts truck for $500. The TF999 is the trans used from 1980-1999 in CJ7 YJ and TJ.

@jeepintj on instagram. My build is slow as most are. But plan to have in on the road for next year.
I'll have to check it out, you should definitely post a build thread here to keep this board alive. Facebook etc. has taken over but good luck looking for tech info there.

I know the 4.3 has been done but it's heavier and the power per pound isn't there in my opinion. You'll get 8 cyl fuel economy and v6 performance. I stumbled upon the 2.8 and 2.9 Colorado and Canyon engine today.

4cyl, automatics are 4l60e factory... 185hp under 300lbs. This is worth looking into
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Thank you much. The photobucket thing killed a LOT of tech and was really disheartening. My hope is people get burned out on Facebook soon and start to look for actual TECH again. FB and IG suck for sharing tech, period.

My flatty with a regular old Buick 225 iron block and head V6 was still about 3000lbs total without really trying too hard.

My general view on flat fender powerplants is that 4cyl engines don't have enough torque to work with the gearing you can fit in the short wheelbase. You really need 'toyota' type gearing with 100-200:1 crawl ratios to make them work right....and they really need more than a 4spd with big jumps between gears. A 6cyl is just about the 'right' fit in a flatty in my opinion. They work well with 75-100:1 gearing and can deal with the larger jumps in transmission gearing much better. V8s are a pain to deal with packaging and cooling.

I don't think an automatic transmission is really that practical in a close to stock wheelbase flatty, especially with a centered rear output transfer case and good belly clearance. You can make them work if you drop the belly and have a 13" rear driveshaft, but it just doesn't seem practical to me generally.

If I was going to be building a new flatty I would be looking at the 2015+ GM 4.3 all-aluminum truck engine based on the LT engine platform. They don't weigh much and they are about 300hp with a tune. That is plenty for a flat fender.

My 2nd choice 'normal' engine would be the GM 3900 v6. They are the last of the 60 degree pushrod engines. They are VERY compact in most every direction.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Mieser,

Do you think I would be making a huge mistake sticking a 4.8 or 5.3 into one of these? I'd be stretching the nose and body regardless... perhaps 10" overall.

I was thinking... it's a Willy's despite wanting an auto, is it a right of passage that it be a manual trans? It would certainly be more theft proof that way
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I can tell you that a 5.3,4l60,and d300 weighs real close to a 1992 4.3,sm420, d300 combo. In a stretched flatty the 5.3 and auto is super fun, I stretched my hood 3.5inches, 9 inches in the door, and 7 inches behind the door for a 101 inch wb. My rear drive shaft is 29 inches. Without the stretched rear the drive shaft would be less than 13 inches.
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Old 08-03-2019, 02:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Mieser,

Do you think I would be making a huge mistake sticking a 4.8 or 5.3 into one of these? I'd be stretching the nose and body regardless... perhaps 10" overall.

I was thinking... it's a Willy's despite wanting an auto, is it a right of passage that it be a manual trans? It would certainly be more theft proof that way
I appreciate the challenge and limitations of building inside the stock size. Once you stretch it a bunch I can't help but think that starting with something else would be better. Building with the low cowl height and narrow foot box is just about as much challenge as wheelbase in my opinion. If you stretch it you still have the other things to deal with.....
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I can tell you that a 5.3,4l60,and d300 weighs real close to a 1992 4.3,sm420, d300 combo. In a stretched flatty the 5.3 and auto is super fun, I stretched my hood 3.5inches, 9 inches in the door, and 7 inches behind the door for a 101 inch wb. My rear drive shaft is 29 inches. Without the stretched rear the drive shaft would be less than 13 inches.
I've got a 1964 CJ5 with a 4.3L V6, SM420, D18 and the rear CV driveshaft is 16 1/2". Build thread.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...eep-build.html
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If your going Toyota axles are you opposed to going all Toyota? Its been almost 25 years now but had a buddy roll his 78 toyota pickup. He swapped his whole drive train into a 51 willys, has great mileage and some real style. He still has it but is in need of TLC.
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Old 08-11-2019, 04:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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If your going Toyota axles are you opposed to going all Toyota? Its been almost 25 years now but had a buddy roll his 78 toyota pickup. He swapped his whole drive train into a 51 willys, has great mileage and some real style. He still has it but is in need of TLC.
No not totally against the idea, the choice to go with Toyota axles is simply width and I wonít have to cut anything down. Iíd even consider a new style D30 and 8.8 but I wanted better steering options and hubs
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Lots of different drivetrains have been put under a flatty. Putting something all metric under it probably starts the grind, but the Toy drivetrain has been proven and a valid choice. Auto vs Manual has been debated for decades. In ANY rig it is more a personal "passage" decision than a "right of passage debate." Very few (Meiser) would go back to a manual. With stretching so common and proven, the driveshaft argument if mute.

I think all the lengthening the OP is considering is the new norm due to expected tougher obstacles. I would think in Ontario a minimum tire would be a 37" on a new build. Amount of stretch depends on your obstacles. 84" WB and stock is skid anywhere on the Rubicon. Not so in Utah. Wheelbase, lockers, and do-dahs define a wheelable trail.

Now putting a hole in the hood because you couldn't figure out how to get the motor placed right is more verboten than anything else. Vents are accepted. Once you leave "stock" might as well make your rig as wheelable, comfortable, safe and within your budget and skill as possible.

Pirate will let you know, thru suggestions or criticism, when you are going wrong. Almost everything has been done to a FF or other car/rig in one way or another. We all steal ideas from others builds to do our own. See what you like and sleep on it. Sounds like you have already started.

One of the more radical FF's out there is the Larry Minor builds. He wins. No one laughs. And built with just enough room for an ice chest. His trail rig is "relatively stock" though. (Meaning maybe the grill) Interesting comment. I bet the grill is the most untouched body part in Willy World..........Carry on. Cheers!
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Im currently atacking parts for a cj5 build up. I e thought about stock jeep repowers along the way.

Toy axles. Efi 4cy ax5 d300 will push a standard mild cj/flat fender just fine. Even all japtrain will do a dandy job.

Im going to wind up with some toy axles or some fullwidth gm. Im going with a small motor and a 465/203/205. 4.3 is obviously the easiest and most compact power plant for the job.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Lots of different drivetrains have been put under a flatty. Putting something all metric under it probably starts the grind, but the Toy drivetrain has been proven and a valid choice. Auto vs Manual has been debated for decades. In ANY rig it is more a personal "passage" decision than a "right of passage debate." Very few (Meiser) would go back to a manual. With stretching so common and proven, the driveshaft argument if mute.

I think all the lengthening the OP is considering is the new norm due to expected tougher obstacles. I would think in Ontario a minimum tire would be a 37" on a new build. Amount of stretch depends on your obstacles. 84" WB and stock is skid anywhere on the Rubicon. Not so in Utah. Wheelbase, lockers, and do-dahs define a wheelable trail.

Now putting a hole in the hood because you couldn't figure out how to get the motor placed right is more verboten than anything else. Vents are accepted. Once you leave "stock" might as well make your rig as wheelable, comfortable, safe and within your budget and skill as possible.

Pirate will let you know, thru suggestions or criticism, when you are going wrong. Almost everything has been done to a FF or other car/rig in one way or another. We all steal ideas from others builds to do our own. See what you like and sleep on it. Sounds like you have already started.

One of the more radical FF's out there is the Larry Minor builds. He wins. No one laughs. And built with just enough room for an ice chest. His trail rig is "relatively stock" though. (Meaning maybe the grill) Interesting comment. I bet the grill is the most untouched body part in Willy World..........Carry on. Cheers!
[img]
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Iu...I=w444-h789-no
[/img]

This is my idea of a tasteful stretch, not sure if this is a build on here. I even like how they modified the rear fenders to match the front. 37s aren't that street-able and I do want to enjoy this on the road from time to time so another reason to build small. Armour is for scraping and that's what I'll do
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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That is what is so fun about a new build. It is almost a personality check. It can be an expression of yourself. And that may change as you "age," or on your 4th build, or see other options. Military look? Civilian Jeep look? Traditional? Swoopy? Techie? Geographical? All can come into play. The Hummer look vs the laid back look.

Color is another. If it's Orange better be particular because 90% will look closer. OD? Maybe only 40% will look closer. Rusty? Those that appreciate it for what it is and does.

Do you know that most Jeeps are narrower near the tailgate than at the cowl?

A sketch this morning trying to deal with 120ish WB, 18 and 24" IFS/IRS suspension, turning 39* and fenders. The more you stray the harder it is to pull it off.

Edit: Anything I did toward military looked like an Ambulance!
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Ford 3.8 V6, C4, D300.

Engine weighs a bit less than the GM 4.3L, but plenty of aftermarket availability if 190/220 isn't enough power.

C4 would bolt up with a Windsor bell. Run a manual VB.

Call AA for the d300 short adapter.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:09 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Lots of different drivetrains have been put under a flatty. Putting something all metric under it probably starts the grind, but the Toy drivetrain has been proven and a valid choice. Auto vs Manual has been debated for decades. In ANY rig it is more a personal "passage" decision than a "right of passage debate." Very few (Meiser) would go back to a manual. With stretching so common and proven, the driveshaft argument if mute.

I think all the lengthening the OP is considering is the new norm due to expected tougher obstacles. I would think in Ontario a minimum tire would be a 37" on a new build. Amount of stretch depends on your obstacles. 84" WB and stock is skid anywhere on the Rubicon. Not so in Utah. Wheelbase, lockers, and do-dahs define a wheelable trail.

Now putting a hole in the hood because you couldn't figure out how to get the motor placed right is more verboten than anything else. Vents are accepted. Once you leave "stock" might as well make your rig as wheelable, comfortable, safe and within your budget and skill as possible.

Pirate will let you know, thru suggestions or criticism, when you are going wrong. Almost everything has been done to a FF or other car/rig in one way or another. We all steal ideas from others builds to do our own. See what you like and sleep on it. Sounds like you have already started.

One of the more radical FF's out there is the Larry Minor builds. He wins. No one laughs. And built with just enough room for an ice chest. His trail rig is "relatively stock" though. (Meaning maybe the grill) Interesting comment. I bet the grill is the most untouched body part in Willy World..........Carry on. Cheers!
I see what you did there.

Are crazy builds like Larry's a flatty? Or is it just another buggy with skins?

I feel a lot of people really under-estimate what a stock flatty with lockers will do, let alone one on 33-35" tires when built with a touch of modern thinking...low overall height to keep CoG down, flat belly ( hole in the hood be dammed ), modern tires and rubber compounds, good gearing, etc. These days I get the feeling some people might be afraid to scratch their fancy paint.
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Think Larry's "Flatty" is 98% drag or Funny car. It wouldn't suprise me if he had a couple with a similar body. That is his trademark body work for his dune builds. One would be totally funny car for sure. Some would be 2wd buggy. and some might be 4wd......But all dune intended.

There is no doubt that a "stock body" flatty can be built and appreciated on 90% of the trails out there...and in the dunes.

It is that extra 10% where your buddies might leave you, you have to pull rope, roll/stack a rock or two to prevent the tipsey. Drop-offs are extremely not fun either.

I'm one of those guys that likes to drive things clean with no body/carriage damage. Breakage is fine, and I'll try to make the repair betterr. Skid wheeling is not my thing but definitely appreciate the extremes that that technique has taken 4 Wheeling.

As a result, I have a very capable relatively "stock body" flatty that sits In the garage more than it should. Replaced temporarily by an LJ. And building something stretched and wider. Something I wouldn't have considered in the 80's, and probably why the Toyota's got so much play. Longer with skid wheeling but still narrowish. Then they also grew, as did the trails.

The low flatty has never made Fordice because the river would wash the top of the hood...and the waters cold. Choices.

*******************

Meiser: Motion ratio makes the front work without shocks thru the hood. 12" shocks = 18-19" travel in the front. 12 & 14" = 20+ in the rear. IFS is not worth it up to about 45MPH. IRS is not worth it at all, as comp crawlers, U4's, and TT's exhibit. But this is for another discussion.

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Old 09-16-2019, 05:53 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Moar Questions!

Without getting too technical, I've been rethinking my power plant choices simply from a cost perspective.

a 4.8 or 5.3 is plentiful and cheap, there are a lot of tuners locally that can rework a map and harness for me. Keep in mind I am starting from nothing.

The 4cyl Hurricane has a dry weight of approximately 470lbs. An LS series is approximately 580lbs. Besides the physical size differences would you argue that it's HP over weight that destroys the drive train?

I'm thinking about 34" pizza cutters, MAYBE Q78s but as mentioned above, toyotas or Jana54/JK gears in a D44 hosuing would be a nice substitute for axles. But if I'm going to snap them like toothpicks... every search kickback is wontons and LS swap it. I understand tire/size leverage and driver stupidity but would like to know your thoughts
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:20 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Without getting too technical, I've been rethinking my power plant choices simply from a cost perspective.

a 4.8 or 5.3 is plentiful and cheap, there are a lot of tuners locally that can rework a map and harness for me. Keep in mind I am starting from nothing.

The 4cyl Hurricane has a dry weight of approximately 470lbs. An LS series is approximately 580lbs. Besides the physical size differences would you argue that it's HP over weight that destroys the drive train?

I'm thinking about 34" pizza cutters, MAYBE Q78s but as mentioned above, toyotas or Jana54/JK gears in a D44 hosuing would be a nice substitute for axles. But if I'm going to snap them like toothpicks... every search kickback is wontons and LS swap it. I understand tire/size leverage and driver stupidity but would like to know your thoughts
Doing an LS ( or any V8 swap ) properly in a flatty requires a 3-4" nose job in my opinion. The truck intake and pan make it more difficult to package things vertically along with the truck accessories. Those 'cheap' LS 4.8 and 5.3 swaps turn into something much more involved.

A D44 with 35s or less in something the weight of a flat fender is a good package. Tons in a flatty will basically make it into a buggy once you sort out the packaging and wheelbase.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Iím running all Toyota stuff in my stretched flatty. 22re, 5spd, dual cases, 4.88s and lockers, with 37s. It works well and Iíve been wheeling it for 6 months now. Only carnage was a broken front drivers side stub shaft when I was climbing a slab, lost momentum and slid back into an undercut and gained 100% traction on front driver while the rest of the rig was still sliding down the slab. The dual cases helps a ton on slow technical stuff. As Meiser said, the 200:1 crawl ratio helps alot. Itís underpowered for sure but I can pull 60mph and keep up with traffic, but I canít whip into the left lane to pass anyone.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Iím running all Toyota stuff in my stretched flatty. 22re, 5spd, dual cases, 4.88s and lockers, with 37s. It works well and Iíve been wheeling it for 6 months now. Only carnage was a broken front drivers side stub shaft when I was climbing a slab, lost momentum and slid back into an undercut and gained 100% traction on front driver while the rest of the rig was still sliding down the slab. The dual cases helps a ton on slow technical stuff. As Meiser said, the 200:1 crawl ratio helps alot. Itís underpowered for sure but I can pull 60mph and keep up with traffic, but I canít whip into the left lane to pass anyone.
Got pics? Stretched tub?
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:24 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Hereís the build thread. Yes, tub is stretched 22.5Ē

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...d-mods-13.html
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Hereís the build thread. Yes, tub is stretched 22.5Ē

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep...d-mods-13.html
I remember this build thread now, glad I reviewed it before photobucket went stupid and ruined your hosting. Stretch is a little long for my preference but you did an awesome job! Thanks for the inspiration.

Locally Iím having a hard time finding axles which will really dictate how the build will go. Tons of 1 ton stuff I do not want, landcrusier axles people want $1600 for a pair and that isnít worth it to me.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by [Memphis] View Post
I remember this build thread now, glad I reviewed it before photobucket went stupid and ruined your hosting. Stretch is a little long for my preference but you did an awesome job! Thanks for the inspiration.

Locally Iím having a hard time finding axles which will really dictate how the build will go. Tons of 1 ton stuff I do not want, landcrusier axles people want $1600 for a pair and that isnít worth it to me.
Can you get Roxor axles up there? Basically new 53" wide Dana 44 clones for about $1000Us per end down here.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:58 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
Can you get Roxor axles up there? Basically new 53" wide Dana 44 clones for about $1000Us per end down here.
Complete?! Hub to hub? If so that's a steal.
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