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Old 03-07-2014, 09:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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After Market Injection - 4.6V8

Hi - I am after information from anyone who has fitted a complete self learning aftermarket injection system for a 4.6 V8.

I have no induction for an engine that I am building and looking injection options. This engine is going into an older vehicle. On this thread just looking for information for complete injection options. Yes I can get a Rover manifold and injectors and put Megasquirt on it but I am also researching other options.

An example is say the Holly self contained injection system to replace its carbies - so looking at options like that.

Thanks

Garry
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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After Market Injection - 4.6V8

Garry,
start here:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/land-...s-efi-tbi.html

;-)
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'd start with 14CUX, fits a 101 quite well truth be told.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 100SRV View Post
Thanks for that - interesting read - basically advocates my main option of getting a Gems or Thor manifold and Megasquirting it. But I want to consider other options before deciding. The original poster in that link was not getting the answers he was looking for and in the end seemed to give up be wanting to go carbies. I have that option too as I have ome carbies that could go on but they would limit the capability of the engine.

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I'd start with 14CUX, fits a 101 quite well truth be told.
I have a 14CUX manifold and injectors but I have been told that they will strangle a 4.6 too much.

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Old 03-08-2014, 05:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I have a 14CUX manifold and injectors but I have been told that they will strangle a 4.6 too much.

Garry
Isn't the GEMS hardware (manifold, plenum etc) very similar to 14CUX?
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yeah, different iac so the coilpacks would fit, and no vac advance port. The bottom and middle parts of the intake are identical
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Isn't the GEMS hardware (manifold, plenum etc) very similar to 14CUX?
I am not sure of the differences - they certainly look the similar though the 4.6 Gems has a larger (higher plenum).

I would assume the manifold on the Gems breathes better to take into account the bigger capacity engine and injectors are able to deliver more fuel where required. I know from some Rover V8 tuning sites that the standard 14CUX is not up to scratch in standard form but can be rechipped or remapped to deliver a bit more fuel.

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Old 03-09-2014, 01:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I have a 14CUX manifold and injectors but I have been told that they will strangle a 4.6 too much.
Garry
Can't see it being that much of an issue, the 14CUX setup was fine for running the 4.2, the main restriction in airflow into the engine was the AFM, which is a straight swop for a Jag one with a larger bore, although if you go megasquirt you can ditch the AFM and the only restriction is the throttle body, which is the same size for 14CUX, GEMS and Thor setups.

The largest differences between GEMS and 14CUX manifolds relate to 14CUX having the idle control valve on the back of the plenum (or cold start valve in the side for flapper setups) whilst the GEMS doesn't.
Wouldn't take you long to mount coil packs to the 14CUX setup.
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Can't see it being that much of an issue, the 14CUX setup was fine for running the 4.2, the main restriction in airflow into the engine was the AFM, which is a straight swop for a Jag one with a larger bore, although if you go megasquirt you can ditch the AFM and the only restriction is the throttle body, which is the same size for 14CUX, GEMS and Thor setups.
My 4.6 seems to be running fine with the stock 3.9 AFM. Its running so good actually that I've now prioritized repairing the cruise control

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Old 03-10-2014, 01:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If the 14CUX manifold etc works Ok then why did they go to GEMs and then to THOR - obviously they had a reason for that?

Garry
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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After Market Injection - 4.6V8

Quote:
Originally Posted by garrycol View Post
If the 14CUX manifold etc works Ok then why did they go to GEMs and then to THOR - obviously they had a reason for that?

Garry
Main reason was to improve emissions and bring the old buick/rover motor into line with BMW corporate engine management.

We had a 4.6 running 14CUX in the race bowler - the engine ran beautifully, could have been better but with Rover V8's it's the heads which need the attention first.

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Old 03-10-2014, 04:43 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks for that information - certainly I am only running standard 4.0 (I understand the same as 4.6 heads) heads so no larger valves or better breathing.

I am leaning to the 14CUX as I have it all except an ECU and it seems to work OK on the 4.6. I can go Megasquirt to control everything or go an upgraded ECU and Jag AFM with Megajolt handling the ignition.

Cheers

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Old 03-10-2014, 06:22 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garrycol View Post
If the 14CUX manifold etc works Ok then why did they go to GEMs and then to THOR - obviously they had a reason for that?

Garry
as its been said above, 14cux and GEMS manifolds are almost identical. The GEMS was changed up so the coil packs could fit behind the upper plenum, the IAC is in the way on a 14cux for coil packs. The reason for the change? OBD2 required individual cylinder misfire detection, coil packs are the best way to meet that requirement.

THOR is just a better intake, but thats to be expected with time. An 80s designed manifold with available technology might have been autocad. The late 90s designed intake would have had computational fluid dynamic anaysis software to solve for the best runner lenght and profile.

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Old 03-10-2014, 12:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I run this on most of the race cars I build . It is easy to set up many choices for fuel and ignition control. And very affordable. Simple Digital System EM-5
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The reason for the change? OBD2 required individual cylinder misfire detection, coil packs are the best way to meet that requirement.
WTF? The coil packs have NOTHING to do with mis-fire DETECTION. Mis-fire are detected on GEMS trucks by analysis of acceleration of the camshaft versus crankshaft position. The CmPS only exists to speed start-up if the ECU loses it memory of where the crank was when the engine was shut down and for mis-fire detection.

Coil-packs do add to the efficiency of the engine through wasted spark and the ability to more carefully control ignition timing to compensate for environmental conditions, engine component weathering/aging, and fuel characteristics.

To answer the OP's question, 14 CUX is the simplest way to get started and easy enough to move forward to MS or other aftermarket EMS.
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Not true. Stick to selling wrenches
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Come on then genius, tell us how a wasted spark coil pack setup helps misfire detection?

The ECU uses a selection of sensors to work out what the engine is doing, and it's the sensors that allow it work out what's going on, the coil packs do not give feedback to the ECU.

In simpler terms, if you pulled the plug leads off the coils and converted your gems engine to a distributor it would still run fine and even detect misfire conditions.

Explain that if you will.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:12 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Wasted spark doesn't add to the efficiency of an engine.
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:26 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Wasted spark perhaps not, but coil packs for ignition do.

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Originally Posted by PTSchram View Post
Coil-packs do add to the efficiency of the engine through wasted spark and the ability to more carefully control ignition timing to compensate for environmental conditions, engine component weathering/aging, and fuel characteristics.
You still haven't answered my question.
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Last edited by DasLandRoverMan; 03-23-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I said they are the best way, not the only way. Ever mess with a distributor system using a cam and crank sensor? It can be a pita to sync, not the best for mass assembly

It probably gives more meaning to p020x vs p030x with multiple coils, but you are misreading something

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Old 03-23-2014, 06:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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1: The presence/absence of coil packs versus other ignition coils adds absolutely nothing to the ability to detect misfires. Misfires are detected in both GEMS and Motronics EMS by the actions of the CkPS, CmPS and to a lesser extent, knock sensors. If you disagree, take it up with the Land Rover engineers who wrote the textbook on Engine Management systems.

2: The benefit of wasted spark is the presence of an ignition spark in the cylinder during the exhaust stroke to improve the consumption of any unburned fuel in the cylinder. Reduces emissions=greater efficiency.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Reduces emissions=greater efficiency.

This is also false, though many would like you to believe it
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
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WAIT WAIT






I need to get the pop corn
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Old 03-24-2014, 12:38 AM   #24 (permalink)
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This is also false, though many would like you to believe it
Just like Dinosaurs never existed and the moon landing was a hoax?

Reduced emissions and greater efficiency go hand in hand.
More efficient use of the fuel going in means that less is required to produce the same output.
Less in and a more efficient/cleaner burn produces less emissions.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:29 AM   #25 (permalink)
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After Market Injection - 4.6V8

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Just like Dinosaurs never existed and the moon landing was a hoax?

Reduced emissions and greater efficiency go hand in hand.
More efficient use of the fuel going in means that less is required to produce the same output.
Less in and a more efficient/cleaner burn produces less emissions.
True but an ignition event with the exhaust valve open is only burning off HC to reduce emissions - the fact that unburnt HC is present in the exhaust gas is a direct result of an inefficient/incomplete combusion process.
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