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Old 06-29-2015, 12:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Engine Swap: No Spark

1996 Discovery, 5 speed

Hello all,

I attempted an engine swap (4.6 out of a 97 Range Rover in place of my struggling 4.0) and it has not had a successful ending, yet...and I'm able to dive back into it after months of it just sitting.

Started taking off the hood, got the old one out, everything switched over, and all the sensors/electronics connected. New engine in, try to start it and I have fuel but no spark. It keeps cranking but just won't ever start.

Replaced the crank sensor with one from Atlantic British (old one was destroyed) - ERR3006 I believe was the part number...bought a few sensors from various other people as well. Gone through and double checked all the connections. Still no spark.

I have since lost the original sensor/spacer that came out originally.
With someone underneath holding the sensor and another person turning the key, it'll turn on (albeit with a very rough idle).
Based solely on visual inspection, it looks like the "bracket" that's welded onto the block is slightly different between the automatic and manual.
Is that bracket different between the auto/manual? Or is it the spacer that comes with the sensor that's angled/different to line everything up?

It's currently sitting about an hour and a half away from where I am so pictures may be difficult, but I'll do my best if needed.

Thanks for any/all help, I'm absolutely stumped...
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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here
Crankshaft position sensor (CKP Sensor)
The crankshaft position sensor is the most important
sensor on the engine. It is located in the left hand side
of the flywheel housing and uses a different thickness
of spacer for manual and automatic gearboxes. The
signal it produces informs the ECM:
- the engine is turning
- how fast the engine is turning
- which stage the engine is at in the cycle.
As there is no default strategy, failure of the
crankshaft sensor will result in the engine failing to
start. The fault is indicated by illumination of the
malfunction indicator light (MIL) on North American
specification vehicles.


CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR (CKP SENSOR)
Service repair no - 18.30.12
Remove
1. Disconnect battery negative lead.
2. Raise vehicle on ramp.
3. Remove 2 bolts securing sensor/shield to engine
backplate.
4. Remove sensor/shield.
5. Remove shield.
6. Disconnect sensor multiplug and remove sensor.
7. Remove spacer from sensor.
CAUTION: All vehicles have a spacer fitted
to the sensor. Ensure spacer is correctly
refitted.
Refit
8. Clean mating faces.
9. Fit spacer to sensor.
10. Position sensor and connect multiplug.
11. Position shield to sensor and align sensor/shield
to engine backplate.
12. Fit bolts. Tighten to 6 Nm.
13. Lower ramp.
14. Reconnect battery negative lead.


If needed hi lite blank space above to see instructions
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Last edited by afirover; 06-29-2015 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I could have sworn we tried "every" combination of sensor/spacer to no avail.

If I remember correctly, with the spacers the end of the sensor was too far away...to get it to start we had to angle it in towards the teeth.

*It should be noted, which I had forgotten until now, that the sensor that was on the vehicle before all this didn't have a quick disconnect...or a shield around it

Last edited by nate132; 06-30-2015 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I could be wrong but I seem to remember a bad crank sensor in the D2's killing power to the fuel pump as well as spark. I worked on a D2 with no spark, ended up being a blown dash fuse, I think the one to the coil?
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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OK, when I was told about this thread, I thought for sure you were a troll.

Now I'm not so sure.

Holding the CkPS in place? Braver man than I.

The bracket is the same manual/auto but the sensors are different.

Which do you have, manual or auto?

Do you have the piece that slips over the sensor and spaces it out from the block?

Did you use the same flywheel or is this a different flywheel?

If it doesn't have a quick connect, how are you wiring it together?
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Old 07-01-2015, 07:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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mother f'er

I think I'm in the same boat. I went to break in the hot rod 4.6 and it ran for about 3 minutes before coughing and stalling. Great, awesome for camshaft longevity

Let it sit for an hour while I opened RAVE and started looking for test values, restarted it and it ran great (at 2000-3000 rpm, didn't try idle yet) for about 5 minutes, then coughed and stalled.

Everything is hot as hell under there, so no pulling the sensor tonight. pin 11 and 12 on the ECM small connector look like they are the sensor wires. Less than 1 ohm resistance. Pulled the computer and fuel pump fuse, switched over to volts and cranked. Saw the occasional .1 flutter across the DVOM (yeah, not the best tool for the job but it was accessible)

scangauge was set to show TPS, IAT, Coolant, and MAF. All were reading values that looked legit, so I'm leaning towards intermittent crank sensor.

Where the hell do you buy a 5 speed crank sensor? The only one I see is on rockauto and it ,looks more like a bosch sensor per the picture, and rockauto has been known to send the wrong part when dealing with rovers. Can you just remove that aluminum tube from an automatic and use that one?

Last edited by robertf03; 07-01-2015 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
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a ha! That .1 ohm didn't sound right. Just had to roast my arm against the cat to find out why.

Should be 1.4 kOhm



and for reference, here is a 97 5 speed crank sensor

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Old 07-02-2015, 12:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTSchram View Post
OK, when I was told about this thread, I thought for sure you were a troll.

Now I'm not so sure.

Holding the CkPS in place? Braver man than I.

The bracket is the same manual/auto but the sensors are different.

Which do you have, manual or auto?

Do you have the piece that slips over the sensor and spaces it out from the block?

Did you use the same flywheel or is this a different flywheel?

If it doesn't have a quick connect, how are you wiring it together?
Hah, I wish I was trying to troll...

Yeah, holding it in place wasn't our "smartest" idea but at that point we willing to try pretty much whatever to get anything to happen (...and someone else volunteered to hold it, I got to turn the key).

It's a manual, before any of this there was a spacer between the sensor and the block...but I have no idea where that spacer (or the original sensor) is now.

Same flywheel.

Wiring it together by stripping wire, twisting/using spades for terminals, and using electrical tape until it's sorted out. After that will likely solder/shrink tube.

Last edited by nate132; 07-02-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 07-02-2015, 12:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robertf03 View Post
mother f'er

I think I'm in the same boat. I went to break in the hot rod 4.6 and it ran for about 3 minutes before coughing and stalling. Great, awesome for camshaft longevity

Let it sit for an hour while I opened RAVE and started looking for test values, restarted it and it ran great (at 2000-3000 rpm, didn't try idle yet) for about 5 minutes, then coughed and stalled.

Everything is hot as hell under there, so no pulling the sensor tonight. pin 11 and 12 on the ECM small connector look like they are the sensor wires. Less than 1 ohm resistance. Pulled the computer and fuel pump fuse, switched over to volts and cranked. Saw the occasional .1 flutter across the DVOM (yeah, not the best tool for the job but it was accessible)

scangauge was set to show TPS, IAT, Coolant, and MAF. All were reading values that looked legit, so I'm leaning towards intermittent crank sensor.

Where the hell do you buy a 5 speed crank sensor? The only one I see is on rockauto and it ,looks more like a bosch sensor per the picture, and rockauto has been known to send the wrong part when dealing with rovers. Can you just remove that aluminum tube from an automatic and use that one?
Before I tried the engine swap mine would do similar things that progressively got worse (which is a contributing reason as to why I wanted to swap...mainly just to get a 4.6 and have an extra block to tinker/learn with, though). If I drove it for a while, shut it off and tried to restart it within a few minutes it wouldn't want to start. Would usually just wait 10-15 minutes and then start it.
When we took the old engine out, the crank sensor looked about like the picture of your connector - oil all over it/worn out. I presumed it would need to be replaced so I ordered one that night...then this all started.

I bought a sensor from Atlantic British, Tillery, and one of the local parts stores (which ended up being for an automatic...). They all came with a different length spacer and we tried every combination. I believe when we just held the sensor it was with the one bought from Tillery (and no spacer) which at least gave us a few seconds of it running to know we were focused in the right place.
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Old 07-02-2015, 05:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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well some liquid electric tape, some real electric tape, and 30 minutes later the engine broke in flawlessly. those 4.0 pistons and 229 camshaft sure do make a 4.6 sound cool at idle.

I had a 96 that would die every time I washed it. My original truck is a 14cux so I've never removed a crank sensor prior to this engine swap, but I suspect whatever is in the 18 year leaks of ATF, engine oil, and lots of heat breaks down the insulation on the crankshaft sensor wire. Maybe rover knew this and that's why the bosch is pigtailed? Probably not, its a hell of a lot easier to install the harness on those.

best of luck to ya. I think after this diagnostic session I might actually like gems more than 14cux, now if we only had open source tuning on those chips.....

Last edited by robertf03; 07-02-2015 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
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best of luck to ya. I think after this diagnostic session I might actually like gems more than 14cux, now if we only had open source tuning on those chips.....
I'm working on it, but it will likely take as long as everything else I do.
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Old 07-06-2015, 09:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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got any 4.6 ecms sitting around? i think ive found the timing table address need to take a peek at a 46 and see if it follows the same trend
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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got any 4.6 ecms sitting around? i think ive found the timing table address need to take a peek at a 46 and see if it follows the same trend
IIRC, 4.0/4.6 was set by software and was directly addressable by the Rovacom. Otherwise, I have no way to know what ECU I have in hand.
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